Hello, everyone! This is my first time posting anything on Curezone. I've just completed Liver Flush #15 on August 16th. I thought I'd let you know about the improvements I've enjoyed: Improved resistance (It used to seem as though I always had a sore throat or something!), way less insomnia, reduced belly fat, improved thyroid function, candida problem almost gone, blood pressure normalized (used to be really low), complexion/coloring improved, mental/emotional health better (I used to obsess about past grievances a lot). There might be a few more that I'm not thinking of just now. My energy level has improved in general, but I'd like to feel better upon awakening.
Here's my first question: Can anyone tell me if there are any indicators of when one is nearing the end of the junk (if you will) in their liver? Most of my flushes yielded black stones, some rather generous in size. The last 2 or 3 cleanses yielded virtually no black stones. I really didn't get very many of those pretty (almost) green ones until this last cleanse. Is there any predictable pattern these cleanses follow? I guess I'm getting a case of liver flush senioritis and I want to graduate or at least take a break!
The whole process feels like a different sort of Science project! (I suppose it's too late to turn it in for credit.)
Thanks!
I've only done two LF. At what intervals did you LF? Did you use Hulda Clark 's LF? When I first entered the curezone liver forum, I found a LF history by "Telman" who documented (with pictures of stones with many posts) his approx 36 LF. It's an amazing story and would be very informative for you.
Hello there! First, I read the instructions for Hulda Clark 's program online and then a friend loaned me Andreas Moritz 's book. The two are pretty similar. My first flush started July 27th of last year. For the most part, I took either 2 or 3 weeks off between flushes. Between flushes 13 and 14, I took off 2 months. I'm so glad I found out about these flushes!! I sort of feel as if I'm in this secret society of people who do this thing that most people don't know anything about. We have this tool which can drastically improve our health. It's rather cool! Take care, and I mean that! Oh, yes and thanks for writing!
Julia
The the first time that one flushes and it starts to removes any debris from the liver but just as importantly expels the stale bile and establishes a good strong biliary system and enterohepatic cycle. Our biliary system gets lazy and doesn't contract properly which may start to decline in our liver health. The enterohepatic cycle is the path by which bile and nutrients are absorb through the intestinal wall: the bile being reclaimed by the liver and used again.
As the ducts become clear and the bile cleaner the liver will commence its own detoxification. This is reported to take 18 months.
It the early days of flushing great improvements are made but as time passes the amount of improvement each flush makes diminishes and I would argue that the time between flushes should therefore increase gradually. This also allows more time for the body to re-balance itself, replenish lost electrolytes and prevent IBS type side effects. If two weeks is an appropriate time at the start of the cleaning programme then this could be increased as one progresses.
It must be remembered that bile becomes over viscous because of many reasons including low bile salts so it is important to allow the bile salt level to stabilise at the correct level. If one isn't careful then you could end up seeing stones because one is flushing over zealously.
You should also give ample time for any lifestyle changes to kick-in.
So take a break and/or increase the time between flushes by a factor of 3 if you are at flush 15. In practise it's trial and error because our the condition of our organs and our metabolisms are so different.
I really appreciate all the information that you've posted. I agree with you about putting more space between flushes at this point. Perhaps sometime this fall I'll do another one - give the body a bit of a break! Thanks, again!
Some of the things you've said before are finally sinking in Telman. Now I'm getting it, and understanding how all the loose ends tie together.
This was another post where you were also talking about things that affect the bile salt pool. I have no gallbladder, which is a major cause, but I also have celiac and food/herbal supplement allergies I hadn't known about for probably years too.
But, the information you gave me in a following post/thread, has finally made THE difference for me with the liver stones not forming like they had been for so long..it has taken the ox-bile, WITH the phosphatidyl choline, PLUS also the pancreatin enzymes to turn the major corner for me. All of them at the same time, consistently (!) prior to meals, and especially meals that have more fats, which I hadn't been doing.
I can also understand (now) why I would have been further depleteing the bile salt pool with no gallbladder, by doing so many liver flushes--but the other thing that I had already been "wondering" about prior to learning what the bile consists of (and that has to be in the right balance for the cholestrol to not coagulate)--is this...
If I didn't already have the bile salts and choline, and enzymes to emulsify, break down the fats/cholestrol, and was then taking in that much oil each week in the liver flushes...no wonder stones continued to form in my liver :(
The other thing I didn't fully realize until recently, and you also referred to it in the post about the bacterias, but there are anaerobic bacterias that also attack/feed on the bile salts and cause problems in the liver/gallbladder too. I've known this for a while already, but parasites also bring bacterias and viruses. I can now also understand why the parasites and pathogens are able to get the head start they do in a liver that has coagulated/backed up bile, and why toxins are also backing up.
The other thing too, that I don't think I've mentioned to you before, is the Epstein Barr Virus that the Nurse Practitioner thought to look for with the chronically elevated liver enzymes, when I was trying to find out what was going on through MD's. The EBV was a found a full year after the gallbladder surgery and it is also known to hit the liver.
Lots of things to think about, but it's been interesting fitting the puzzle pieces together. You've been a major help in my finally getting things put together too that are making a difference. Thanks Telman!
>>>The major problem with cholesterol is its inherently high melting point of 150 deg C. This is way above body temperature. When the essential fatty acids linoleic and linolenic are present in sufficient quantity with lecithin, cholesterol becomes liquid below normal body temperature.
'Normal' Bile is a critically stable (Metastable) material. It is a mixture of 3 compounds:
Cholesterol
Bile Salts
Lecithin
They need to exist together in certain proportion and any imbalance in any of the 3 substances can lead to anomalies in the bile. Too much cholesterol and crystals of cholesterol and clumps of fatty material form. A drop in lecithin and crystals of cholesterol, clumps of fatty material and cluster of plastic like material form. A drop in bile salts and clumps of fatty material and cluster of plastic like material form.
It can be seen that bile has the potential to make a wide variety of different types of 'stones' in the liver, ducts or gallbladder. It is also possibly that bile falling within normal concentrations may under certain condition form gall stones, Eg if the bile isn't replenished regularly or the gallbladder doesn't contract properly among other things.>>
Looking back now, I would now say I probably was one that had a weak bile problem for a long time prior to the gallbladder surgery, when the gallbladder was found to not be functioning (5%)--
but, now that I am looking at more of the bigger picture, I would guess that the "dieting" I did, starting in Jr High school, would have been a factor.
What I now understand, is that not eating (fasting) can cause stagnant bile (stones), and not eating fats, including good fats, can be a cause of stagnant bile and stones too. Not only was I mainly eating the complex carbohydrates that were supposed to be the good thing for you (whole grains etc--with celiac that I didn't know I had), but the fad was also to pay attention to the fat grams, and cut out all fats.
Plus..then factor in the Rocky Mtn Spotted Fever/Lyme coinfections from being sick from a tick when I was 8. I had no idea the problem was on-going for years.
The triangle illustrates the three chemicals compounds chemical compound, cholesterol, bile salt and lecithin present in the gallbladder.
Normal bile concentrations are illustrated by the elliptical area. In area A (including the cross-hatching) cholesterol is completely soluble.
In the cross hatched area bile is called metastable. Under normal circumstances bile is expelled and replenish throughout the day and it stays liquid.
Metastable means that stones may start to form if specific crystal forming factors are present.
If the gallbladder gets lazy and/or the chemical concentration of the compounds move away from the elliptical area then he normal liquid state of the
bile changes.
There are three types of solid particles that can form in the bile. These are crystals, micelles and vesicles.
A micelles is formed when a variety of molecules including soaps and detergents are added to water. The molecule may be a fatty acid, a salt of a
fatty acid (soap), phospholipids, or other similar molecules. (A clump of fatty material)
A vesicle is a small, intracellular, membrane-enclosed sac. (a bag a high concentrated liquid within a lower concentration)
A crystal form in a super saturated solution. Small crystal below 2 mm are called sludge and larger crystals are called cholesterol gallstones.
If bile composition is within:
Area B - Crystal of cholesterol and micelles form.
Area C - Crystal of cholesterol, micelles and vesicle form.
Area D - Micelles and vesicle form.
Area E - Vesicle form.
It can be seen that bile has the potential to make a wide variety of different types of stones (for want of a better word) in the liver, ducts or
gallbladder. It can also be seen that bile falling within normal concentrations may under certain condition form stones, even true gallstones. Eg if
the bile isn't replenished regularly or the gallbladder doesn't contract properly.
Hi jessiesmom,
A couple days ago, I included a link in my post which a user identified as #47450 returned me a very harsh email with many exclamation marks. Look at my Manuka Honey post a few days ago. #47450 didn't tell me not to include links in a post but Telman was kind enough to explain. I agree and understand that it's not fair to post other websites/links when there are competing companies/people who support this forum. You can mention a product but not the link/website. Just passing this on because I appeciated it when Telman explained to me. You can read Telman's response to me. I'm not sure this is the reason but I suspect it is. Hope this helps.
Because, I am sincerely learning alot from Telman and hated the thought that a post of his would be hidden for any other reason :)
maybe it's true that the student really does have to be ready first..I'm just a slow student, but it finally has started making sense. It's like my father just said today at a Dr's appt..."the body is more complicated than we realize".
I produced a diagram to support the message and uploaded it in the JPG format but when I tried to link to it it only showed up as a red cross and the message was corrupt and was marked hidden.
I converted the diagram to the GIF format and uploaded it again. This time everything was fine. All the text, uncensored is there.
I, too, do not have a gallbladder. How do you know how much bile salts, Phos Choline, pacreatin, ox bile to take? You stated that too much of this or that throws things off.
How does one determine any of this?
I have Biotics Beta Plus (oxbile, pancreatin) and Phos Choline ...
ever since I had my gb out I've had major issues. I just ordered and rec'd Julie (from Sensible Health website) chinese bitters, coptis, curcuma and GCG to prepare for next flush.
I'm just wondering how to put this altogether because it is also majorly affecting my thyroid medicine and other herbs/supplemnets absorption.
Hi Isaiah53,
I think it may be an individual balancing act, but that's my opinion. I don't know if there is a way to measure the amounts needed. And, I'm also thinking that because the bile salts are "recirculated", that the dosages might change over time too.
I have HAD to Liver Flush weekly for some time now, because of feeling the stones in my liver not long after the relief of getting them out of there with a flush. Many times, I've done consecutive nights of flushing..but now I understand how that also fits right in with further depeleting the "bile pool" too.
So, over a month ago, I did (yet) another weekly flush, and got plenty of large, dark green stones out of the liver--and after better understanding what Telman said about the bile being made up of cholestrol, bile salts, and lecithin, I immediately started with the ox-bile, and got the phos-choline ordered (I did not like the granular lecithin, and didn't take it consistently), plus I also got the pancreatin (8x strength) with the lipase, also for fat emulsifying.
I can get my order from iherb in 2 days here, so when it came, I immediatly started taking the phos-choline and the pancreatin enzymes with the ox-bile prior to each meal too.
Out of habit, I did my weekly liver flush the following week- and for the first time, got NO stones. Nothing. And, could feel my liver actually working. I also started reading more about how if the bile is balanced, it is highly alkaline, and parasites/candida is not able to survive in it.
I do have to say that for the first few weeks especially, I had to stay close to the toilet within 1/2 hour to an hour after eating. But, it was alot of gunk coming out of my liver- including dead parasite gunk!
I've been very consistent about making sure I have all 3 things with me, even if I am away from home and having to eat out..and I take them prior to eating any meal, but especially if there is a more fatty meal. Since starting with them faithfully, I have not felt the need to liver flush like I've had to before. I don't feel stones in the liver, which has been nice.
I also have read too, that people that have their galllbadders, and have problems with diarrhea, or not digesting fats, need this stuff too- so it's not just for people without gallbladders.
I've been thinking about this too....gallbladder surgery is the # 1 surgery performed in the US...and how many people are on cholestrol med's- lots. If they know children already have Gallstones at early ages- how many people probably have a bile imbalance, and have no clue-- and end up having to go the medical route because of it?
One other interesting thing that I've also realized with the phos-choline...it also has phosphoric acid in it. From what I have read about what phosphoric acid does- it breaks down calcified stones (including liver/gallstones, and kidney stones).
This was one of the "ah-ha" things I realized with the bile salts and no gallbladder:
Plus--bile salts are concentrated 5 times in the gallbladder..no gallbladder means--yeh:
>>Bile is a complex biochemical mixture, made continuously by the liver — 500-1000 ml/day passing down into the duodenum via the bile duct. There is a diversion in this journey: a small 50 ml sac — the gall bladder — fills with bile from the liver, and, by absorbing water across its walls, concentrates bile 5-6-fold.>>
No gallbladder affects how we absorb fat soluble vitamins:
>>The bile micelles pass into the duodenum, where the detergent action of the bile salts emulsifies fats, which are then broken down by the enzyme lipase from the pancreas. Bile salts also assist the final absorption of the products of fat digestion. Both bile and lipase are necessary for the proper absorption of fats by the small intestine. Without one or other of these two, there is deficiency of the vital fat-soluble vitamins, A, D, E and K, and malabsorption causes fat to appear in the faeces (steatorrhoea).>>
>>>Most surgeons are blithely ignorant about the lost function of the gall bladder in patients who cholecystetomy. All patients lacking a gall bladder suffer from deficiency of bile acids. Patients lacking a gall bladder are unable to control bile secretion into the intestines to regulate proper absorption of fats, fatty acids, and fat soluble vitamins. Proper removal of toxins depends on bile acids that are not available in appropriate quantities after cholecystectomy. All persons who have had cholcystectomy need to take bile acids permanently. Without a gall bladder the patient has lost the ability to stock up on fat that can be used as a source of calories in illness and famine, essential fatty acids and fat soluble vitamins(A, D, E, K).>>
Telman, you remind me (depletion of bile salts) that a healthy intake of replacement minerals is quite important. I stay away from pills/tablets but that may work in certain cases. I go more for wheatgrass juice every morning, plus other juice combinations such as carrot-celery, or even dandelion greens.
Dandelion greens and roots (if you have a twin-gear juicer like Green Star) have the highest amount of potassium of any food in the world. Potassium is one of the key bile salts, along with calcium, sodium (not salt) and phosphorus. There are all found in wheatgrass juice in abundance, but can also be found in juice combinations like carrot-celery-dandelion.
The Ph of the bile should be 7.5 so it needs to have some SERIOUS salts added to keep that Ph up there. That's where I think the juices can benefit people, and even prevent any net loss of bile salts through flushing. Juices absorb and digest almost effortlessly. For people with depleted digestion this is the only way to get those bile salts in abundance, along with their enzymes (raw juices only can do that.)
I think coffee enemas also cause some loss of bile salts, so I tend to not use them just for a caffeine fix. I do use them after a flush though. But I don't sweat the loss of bile salts from this because what I get from juices is easily digested.
There is a bigger picture to this than simply wolfing down some olive oil and holding your breath! Maybe a few times you can get away with that but if you continue you may deplete bile salts and just cause things to start to reverse.
Hello,
I started liver cleansing in Sep 2008 (so almost a year ago), and completed the most recent of the flushes just today - that's pretty similar to what you have done. So I decided I'd share my thoughts here ;-)
First 3 flushes produced lots of stones, each time it was around 2 handfuls. The very first one produced calcified stone of 3,5 - 4cm in diameter - it was so big that I got really (!) scared. At the same time I started to believe the flush really works - you couldn't produce such stone with such amount of calcium on it just during one night (some people say all the stones we see during flush were CREATED by this flush - now I know such people never did LF).
Then I started experimenting with various options: I added ginger/cayenne/garlic to the mixture, I once replaced olive oil with cold pressed pumpkin seed, etc - olive one is the best. If you decide to go for LF - simply follow right directions (Hulda or Andreas ones) - before my 1st flush I was too lazy to read the instructions carefully and I just drank olive + lemon mixture - without taking Epsom Salts . I didn't sleep the whole night and spent *really* miserable day, plus my condition got worse as a bonus ;-) I don't know how it works exactly but seems that epsoms really widen your bile ducts - here again I don't agree with people saying you don't need LF because after eating large, very fatty mean, anyway liver flushes itself. That's partially true - my giant stone would hv remained forever in me if i had followed such advices.
I observed LF produced better results when done on new moon - after 2 such findings I never did it in other times. I don't know whether it's really working for everyone but it did for me - I explain it to myself with body being stronger during new moon and not having to carry all liquids in order to counteract moon's gravity force. Perhaps silly - I think A.M. mentioned people having success regardless of lunar phase.
I'm against doing LF in shorter than 3 weeks intervals and i give it at least 1 month pause. The anatomy of flush is relying on the bile pushed out with great force out of the liver and gb. That implies it DOES cost your body to produce this bile and release it - it's like a surgical procedure and you need to recover. Reading more and more on Chinese Medicine, I would simply say you were give certain pool of energy at the moment of your birth and you should use it wisely. To bring it to western terms, 'energy' might mean total number of releasing bile to intestines and reabsorbing it - for example. LF is a powerful weapon and shouldn't be used for excersise purpose or just because it belongs to your habit/routine.
Next observation - the more LF I've done, the hader I think how NOT to do them. I mean - such diet, such lifestyle, so all the systems are doing well and there are no more gallstone causes. Of course - from time to time 'maintenance' flush could be done. What really bothers me - A.M. always mentioned about his '12 flushes', and i don't know if he doesn't need them anymore. He recommends doing them twice per year - and i don't know if that's because he presumes average's person diet is so poor it'll always trigger Gallstones or he follows the rule himself. Does anybody know the answer?
Another and most important one - your goal is most likely not the liver, but overall health, with LF being just on your way/among your means to achieve the goal. Although it gives a lot of benefits, as long as your colon is dirty or your kidneys suffer or whatever the imbalance might be - you could do 80 or more LFs (like some people here did) and still not be perfectly healthy. As soon as you feel cleansing your liver brings smaller and smaller improvements, you should switch to next bottleneck, next critical place in your body that blocks you from being healthy and happy - if you feel there's such one. For instance, it doesn't make any sense to torture your liver with liters of olive oil if you have lots of plague in your intestines - despite the increased bile flow intestines will get a bit better, but toxins released directly to the blood will still overtax the liver. Same if you ignore the timing in which we're optimized to eat, skip meals and eat them in times where body has little or no energy to digest or you eat junk food etc etc
Next one(s) ... will come for sure -- I've just begun the journey
Hello V,
Thanks for writing! I think I need to focus on the day-to-day ways of improving my health such as getting into a more regular routine of exercise, drinking more water, juicing more often - things like that - perhaps a bit of colon cleansing...Then perhaps in a month or two if I get the urge to do another liver flush, I will.
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