It also depends on which Vitamin D was used and for what period of time.
Vitamin D toxicity is highly unlikely unless consuming at least 40,000ius or more per day over several months.
"Animal data indicates signs of toxicity can occur with ingestion of 0.5 mg/kg (20,000 IU/kg ), while the oral LD50 (the dose it takes to kill half the animals) for cholecalciferol in dogs is about 88 mg/kg, or 3,520,000 IU/kg. An Overview of Cholecalciferol Toxicosis. The American Board of Veterinary Toxicology (ABVT). This would be equivalent to a 110-pound adult taking 176,000,000 IU or 440,000 of the 400 unit cholecalciferol capsules.
Professor Vieth reports human toxicity probably begins to occur after chronic daily consumption of approximately 40,000 IU/day (100 of the 400 IU capsules)"..................... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10232622
And........
Cholecalciferol (Vitamin D3), Not Ergocalciferol (Vitamin D2), Is Safe...........................
Although there are documented cases of pharmacological overdoses from ergocalciferol, the only documented case of pharmacological—not industrial—toxicity from cholecalciferol we could find in the literature was intoxication from an over-the-counter supplement called Prolongevity. Koutkia P, Chen TC, Holick MF. Vitamin D intoxication associated with an over-the-counter supplement. N Engl J Med. 2001 Jul 5;345(1):66–7. On closer inspection, it seemed more like an industrial accident but it was interesting because it gave us some idea of the safety of cholecalciferol. The capsules consumed contained up to 430 times the amount of cholecalciferol contained on the label (2,000 IU). The man had been taking between 156,000–2,604,000 IU of cholecalciferol a day (equivalent to between 390–6,500 of the 400 unit capsules) for two years. He recovered uneventfully after proper diagnosis, treatment with steroids, and sunscreen.
It is true that a few people may have problems with high calcium due to undiagnosed vitamin D hypersensitivity syndromes such as primary hyperparathyroidism, granulomatous disease, or occult cancers, but a blood calcium level, PTH, 25(OH)D, and calcitriol level should help clarify the cause of the hypersensitivity. Although D can be toxic in excess, the same can be said for water.
Ya, that is what I was thinking - it would take a heck of a lot to overdose.
50,000 units is what Wiki says, NIH said 40,000 was about the limit.
So how much was Null getting? They must have really overloaded those supplements.
HINT - if you take supplements regularly, it might be a good idea to leave a day or two each week without any supplements so the body can adjust to overloads.
Because Null is very high profile, perhaps there is an attempt being made to purposely make harm him while creating a high profile psychological operation. An investigation will be interesting. I hope Gary considers this as a possibility.
As we know they do tend to target high profile alternative leaders and Gary certainly qualifies for that title. Along with that a plausible angle that we must watch for is that with Codex looming, some psychological operations will be a very high likelyhood. Could this then be a planned psy op to create a problem reaction...solution...scenario where codex can swoop in and save the day with their guidelines so this can never happen again? Stay tuned. Lots of considerations here.
Then again the compounding company could just be haphazard. If it is the latter this also suggests that this may happen with other companies. Supplements vs natural health/wisdom. I'll be in camp 2 thanks. ;-)
poisoned by wayyyy toooo much selenium put in their vitamins.
to the the raw food only people it is like a religon and they are willing to accept deficiencies from lack of absorption in old age and their consequences as NORMAL.....or take alot of stuff that is barely helpful.
well, my old man was shriveling up and dying from lack of testosterone...muscles diapearing altogether...attitude in the dumpster....could not bear temperature higher than 78 degrees (sound familiar some of u menapausal women? yes women must have a small amount of testosterone and that ends with menapause and the effects for some are past uncomfortable!) oh but its natural.....or they can take 8 oz of macca a day might help-try getting that down your throat.....black cohosh is marginally effective for a small number.
bioidentical testosterone is available.
i guess to the pure naturalists anything that happens to you in old age is natural.
There is ignorance in the raw food community as their is in any community. It's about mineral rich food. You can eat raw food that has little nutrition. With awareness you can eat raw living food that is teaming with nutrition and quite economically too. ;-)
Take Gabriel Cousens for instance. On his 60th birthday 600 hundred push ups. That is a feat most young men cannot perform. he could not do that himself when he was younger.
You scare me. It's like your monitoring my inner thoughts.
Yes basically if you want to see if a treatment has merit visit quackwatch. The more it is ridiculed the greater the protocol it is. One has to think in terms of up is down in psy op land.
After I began doing a bit of research into colloidal silver I began to be more and more impressed with it. I was much more impressed after I began using it and seeing what it did for me, and further impressed when I began to see and hear firsthand many testimonials from others. But when the mainstream machine and all of their alphabet agencies and their operatives and psycophants (including the lovely Quackwatch) began to totally crucify colloidal silver, that cinched it - there was no doubt remaining that it had to be something really good.
PS - Actually, I DO monitor your inner thoughts. But don't worry, I won't tell for the most part.
"PS - Actually, I DO monitor your inner thoughts. But don't worry, I won't tell for the most part."
I "thought" so.
Yes I am a huge fan of colloidal silver too. Not just for physical health uses but I have used it in many ways. Laundry rinse. Spray for counter tops, etc. I have even mixed it in bathroom and floor tile grout to act as a mold inhibitor.
You may have noticed Tony that some companies have recognized the benefit and have used it in a nano form in things like washing machine drums and fridges etc to inhibit mold. And then of course there is the silver bandages.
Very cheap solutions for cleaning, mold and bacterial inhibitors and healthy alternatives to costly anti-biotics have made this an enemy to the disease profit industry.
I am also a big fan of h202 but more care must be taken with that. Ozone is also good in many applications. Some new washing machines also have o3 generators built in to deal with fungus and bacteria.
Can you imagine how our world would look if we didn't have these parasitic control freaks running interference to our natural tendency for harmony?
yes, and the opposite is true. if more and more studies just appear out of thin air touting a supplement, you can bet there is something not quite kosher going on. with vit d it is actually quite simple. the "deficiency" is just a symptom of other problems, masked via supplementation. the hook is that it slowly disables your immune system. surprise. by the time people catch on to this, the damage is long done.
and, just to avoid the reactions I usually get, one clarification. I do not advocate the marshall protocol. I do believe that he and his colleages are correct about their conclusions regarding the negative impact of supplementing vitamin d, as well as the true mechanism behind the seeming deficiency that would have the entire world supplementing with vitamin d. wake up people, you are being fooled.
Getting good sunlight, barefoot grounded walking, mineralized produce without toxins (raw) clean vital water and clear emotional health will take you very far. And look how simple it is. We tend to choose over complicated lifestyles and protocols and just stress ourselves further when there is no need. We are conditioned to do so, until we snap out of the trance.
I agree with you to an extent. some supplements are unatural and toxic period. vit d falls in this catagory regardless of whether it is d3 or d2. I certainly have no problem with the sun. however, many people out there, especially those who have been supplementing with d for awhile, would probably be wise to detox the vit d from the their body and have their vdr's checked before extended sun gazing.
but lets not through the baby out with the bathwater. I used to be a purist too, until I tried to really clear parasites and detox metals. there is simply no way to do that with out carefully controlled but sometimes large doses of supplements. but, rather than rely on bogus studies, turn to the best source of information here... your body through kinesiology or dowsing. don't need to guess when you get the exact answer you need.
Is it worth mentioning that bacteriality.com is one of the sites whose purpose is to promote the Marshall Protocol? Or that Amy Proal is a still-wet-behind-the-ears Georgetown grad with a BA in biology who is also a hired shill for Marshall? Almost all of her articles either promote his protocol or else point to it and that has been the case since her senior thesis "Chronic Fatigue and the Marshall Protocol". As such, I have to view anything she writes as self serving and worthy of questioning.
It is good to hear that you don't advocate Marshall's protocol. His background is not impressive at all when it comes to medical science and his past includes some very questionable episodes. Trevor Marshall is often mis-identified as a biochemist, while in reality he is an electrical engineer with a somewhat shady background. See:
As one article skeptical of Marshall noted, his views that people should avoid vitamin D and avoid sunlight run counter to the overwhelming bulk of qualified opinion. None of his theories about vitamin D have been proven in vitro, and especially not in vivo. Sometimes a lone wolf who turns out to be against the overwhelming tide of opinions and evidence to the contrary is correct, but I don't think Marshall is such a wolf.
his protocol sucks, but, his is right about the dangers of vit d supplementation, as well as the hidden epidemic of l-form bacteria out there. people would do well to read all the studies and actually understand them before dismissing this as a non issue. I did, got tested and confirmed. fixed the problem in short order. no more deficiency no more need for supplements. and, no more damage to my immune system. wake up and smell the scam people.
Hello John,
our paths cross once again concerning Vitamin D.
DQ has eloquently and articulately expressed my own opinion in this thread.
It seems strange to me that your stance on Vitamin D is as it is, because the overwhelming scientific evidence and research points in one direction, and one direction only: most people are deficient from what is considered to be sufficient or optimal levels.
Just to clarify.......
Cholecalciferol (D3) is commonly referred to as a hormone: which it isn't. It is actually a prehormone. In fact, it is no more of a hormone than cholesterol is. It is very similar to cholesterol. For example, some of the cholesterol you eat is turned into hormones: estrogen, testosterone, progesterone, etc. Some of the cholecalciferol from your skin, or from supplements you take, will be turned into hormones by the body. So cholecalciferol is no more of a hormone than is cholesterol.
However, some of your cholecalciferol (from sunlight-exposure or supplements) will be transformed into calcidiol via the Liver, and then calcitriol via the kidneys: it is only the latter which is considered to be a very potent "steroid" with powerful anti-cancer properties.
Also, if any calcidiol is left over from the Liver, and the kidneys are receiving all the calcidiol they need to maintain serum calcium levels.......then calcidiol is able to take another pathway, one that leads directly to the cells. These are the autocrine (inside cell) and paracrine (around the cell) functions of the vitamin D system.
If you only have a small amount of calcidiol (formed from cholcalciferol via the Liver) in your blood, virtually all of it goes to your kidney, which then makes extra calcitriol to keep your serum calcium levels from falling. This means that almost no calcidiol gets to your tissues to make tissue calcitriol.
But when the body has an abundance of cholcalciferol, the left over calcidiol (from the Liver) goes to the many cells in the body "directly", which are then able to make their own calcitriol to fight cancer.
In fact, the cells appear to make as much calcitriol as they can. The more calcidiol they get, the more calcitriol they make. The manufacture of calcitriol in the tissues is unique. Every single cell in the body has receptors for D.
So, what you are saying is that an electrical engineer with shady medical science credentials (including publishing articles in his own journals) and a shadier ethical background who has a hired shill and a patented protocol he is promoting and gives advice to avoid sunshine and keep Vitamin D3 levels low is right when virtually the entire universe of scientific opinion and the opinion of those who favor alternative health is wrong? Again, he not only warns about Vitamin D supplementation, he warns about exposure to sunshine - the giver of life on our planet and something that mankind has develped to utilize and depend on to thrive since we first put down our first footsteps in the sands of time. I think it is clear to see where the scam is - and it is not getting adequate sunshine nor is it supplementing with a reasonable amount of Vitamin D3.
Don- doesn't it strike you as a bit ironic that we are curezone are suddenly demanding medical credentials before an opinion is given any credence? Did I take a wrong turn somewhere and end up at the quackwatch page? he figured some of this out because his doctors told him he had an incurable medical condition. that would drive anyone with an above average intelligence, motivation and an open mind to try and solve the problem. that is exactly what is required for any sort of breakthrough or new approach. think about it.
as far as being a shill, her studies are published in the same shill medical journals that publish the vit d council correlational studies (which are all flawed if you know how to look at them). they are set up to show an outcome.
if you read the studies carefully, you would understand that Marshall's protocol about avoiding the sun and all vit d is exactly the same thing Null is doing now. The root of the problem is not so much the vitamin d, but rather, that the in many affected individuals the body's ability to process vit d has been blocked, and that any vit d that is either ingested or created though sunlight adds to the toxic build up. once the l-form bacteria are cleared, the sun will not be an issue, and nor will any supplements be necessary. In short, it is a temporary avoidance plan.
Marshall's treatment protocol is flawed however in that it relies on antibiotics and drugs, which frankly, the l-form bacteria are adaptive enough to get around long term. by the way, on of the reasons the l-form bacteria issue is becomming more and more prevelent is the use of antibiotics with force bacteria to lose their cell wall to survive. at this stage, doctors cannot even "see" them, and therefore, do not even realize the nature of the threat.
For anyone with any sort of health issues, you would be well advised to have yourself checked for VDR blockage, l-form bacteria as well as the levels of the various stages of the vitamin d pathway. A skilled kinesiologist can do this once you educate he or she as to what she is looking for. if you simply test whether the blood is deficient in vit d, you will probably get a positive result, but, the inquiry cannot stop there, you must go on to check the whole picture. if your body carries the issue described by marshall, then any vitamin d will make the body more toxic and further disable the immune system.
yes it takes some homework to understand this. but once you do, you will understand why i believe that vitmin D is being added to everything under the sun and why there is an apparent epidemic of vitamin deficiency going on out there. has nothing to do with not getting enough sun. but please people, don't take my word for it. do your homework and find someone to check you. if you fit the pattern, go to the rife forum and read up on how to fix it. you won't need vitamin d pills ever again. step back and think about. throwing vit d pills at some health symptom... this is not different than simply poping some drug to cover up an issue. not very informed or creative.
I don't believe that anyone should pop a supplement or a drug to try to cover up a problem - that is just chasing a cure in a bottle without addressing the underlying causes, and in that respect it could be likened to the overall philosophy of using mainstream drugs to manage symptoms instead of illness. On the other hand, there is absolutely no comparison to supplementing with a natural item to correct a deficiency versus taking unnatural drugs.
I try to point out that taking supplements without establishing a good health foundation is akin to trying to put a hasty patch ot two on a leaky roof which sits ontop of a building with a crumbling foundation. At best you may get some relief, but if a bad storm (disease) comes along, then you are ill equipped to ward it off.
Don- I agree with you for the most part. but some reason people are being encourage to stop thinking critically on some items, like vit d. some of these studies promoting vit d on the basis of widespread deficiency even claim that people living in india are deficient because their skin is too dark!?! come one, think that through for a minute. they are living exactly where their ancestor's bodies evolved dark skin. no doubt people's blood levels are low... but is simply an effect or symptom of other issues. popping vit d supps misses the entire issue.
I am not against supplements. I do take issue with vit d however as this burned me and i thought I was paying attention. it is too far under the radar and someone needs to shine a light on it.
j.
It might be prudent to follow the money when it comes what has been recently reported in India. As I pointed out in a response in The Times of India I posted, the article quoted doctors who said that the solution was mandatory Vitamin D fortification of foods. The article also blamed pollution for the vitamin D deficiency. So, instead of addressing the pollution and toxins, mandate fortifcation of processed foods with artificial vitamin D. Hogwash!
agreed. I eventhink that the pollution bit is hogwash. but it sounds good, and will help push the agenda of mandatory vit d fortification... whe question you have to wonder about is, why? why do the powers that be want foods fortified with vit D (or fluoride, or chlorine or alot of other things). once you see the pattern, vit d's place in the overall scheme of things becomes Crystal C..
John,
there are many factors that contribute to what is perceived as a Vitamin D deficiency.
In Nature our bodies are designed to live in the fresh air, with sun exposure on our skin, with the need to exercise and keep warm, with good wholesome food. These are just some of the tenets of Natural Hygiene: a proven system of health recovery and maintenance based on Physiological Laws.
For many, these elements of health are restricted either voluntarily or involuntarily for one reason or another.
Nature has designed our bodies to receive Cholcalciferol, or Vitamin D3, through sunlight exposure: along with other benefits that sunlight produces within the body. Food sources of Vitamin D3 are considered to be minimal and therefore inadequate.
In the absence of sunlight exposure (for whatever reason) the body still needs Cholcalciferol in the amounts determined by the body from sunlight exposure, and where this is the logical amount determined for supplementation.
What I would like to ask you John you is........
Where do humans receive their sunlight (and therefore their Cholcalciferol) in the Winter months, and especially in Northern climes unless supplemented?
No sunlight exposure results in a deficiency of this Vitamin.
You should try to understand that Cholcalciferol is not a drug, but a natural element of nutrition required by the body for optimal health and the prevention of disease.
You still have yet to provide any evidence that L-form Bacteria blocks the VDR'S (Vitamin D Receptors): meaning any intake of Cholcalciferol, from any source, becomes toxic to the body.
For those who are more technically minded, this is the most recent take on the erroneous assumption that VDR's become blocked...........
"VDRs are NUCLEAR receptors, and as such they aren't directly exposed to circulating (plasma) calcidiol (manufactured by the Liver).
In the plasma, calcidiol is bound to DBP (D binding protein) and (to a much lesser extent) albumin. Following transport through the plasma, DBP and calcidiol in turn bind to megalin proteins that are expressed on some cell surfaces, which binding in turn triggers clathrin to induce endocytosis. Following endocytosis, calcidiol is released from DBP into the cytoplasm, where it is immediately bound to hsc70 (a constitutively expressed chaperone protein that binds many things, including other D-metabolites such as calcitriol). From there, different metabolites of D appear to be selectively directed to specific intracellular organelles. Most relevantly, hsc70-bound calcitriol (aka 1,25(OH)2D, aka the "active D metabolite") has a higher binding affinity to a nuclear chaperone called BAG-1 than hsc70-bound calcidiol does.
This is important because since BAG-1 guides D-metabolites to the VDR, it means that high calcidiol levels won't significantly interfere with VDR binding of calcitriol--and thus Marshall's "in silico"-supported hypothesis that exogenous Vitamin D supplementation interferes with VDR activation turns out to be erroneous. http://jme.endocrinology-journals.o...e2=tf_ipsecsha
Don- I have read your posts. I know you are certainly capable of putting this together. just try and keep an open mind and investigate the entire picture. I too was very skeptical, and am no fan at all of marshall's treatment protocol as there are better ways. but in the end I owe him a debt of gratitute for pointing out what is really happening in the body with vitamin d. based on your questions I can see that you have not fully read and analyzed what he is saying, and I understand that. it took me days to digest, including doing my own charts and graphs. I took it to my doc, who refused to believe it either. but, and this speaks volumes about him, he agreed to test the entire vit d pathway in me. when we got done, he could hardly speak because the tests confirmed what mashall was saying.
the problem is not the sun, it is what has been done to our bodies. the stage is set for an epidemic of l form bacteria. once the process is udner way, taking vitamin d supps plays right into game. you are a health advocate, no? please keep an open mind on this. I am not, and have a full time job and other responsibilities. It is my duty however to point when I have time what I have learned and to suggest to people why taking vit d supplements is wrong, for two main reasons: (1) it ignores the real underlying problem (2) it actually makes the underlying problem worse. fix the real problem, then enjoy all the sun you want. its that simple. The reflexive bashing of this simple concept even here at curezone gives some clue to degree of programming going on out there... Marshall must truly feel like Galileo trying to tell the church leaders that the earth is round, and revolves around the sun. Fat Chance.
I will grant you that it very well could be that supplementing with larger amounts of Vitamin D without addressing other health issues and having an overall healthy diet and lifestyle might in some instances be detrimental. The same is likely true of other nutrients. On the other hand, I think that a general warning against vitamin D supplementation, or supplementation with any reasonable amounts of essential natural vitamins, minerals or other nutrients, would cause far more harm than benefit.
I don't think you will find any articles by John Cannell published on any of the self serving websites or in the self-created publications of Trevor Marshall, who is no Galileo (who had no financial stake in whether or not the earth was at the center of the universe). Regardless of anything published by John Cannell, there have been literally hundreds of studies on Vitamin D and, contrary to what you posted earlier, these studies did not suddenly pop up. If you go to PubMed you will find 48,216 entries for vitamin D which date all the way back to 1922.
Even the studies on Vitamin D which have been published recently are in many instances the culmination of studies that have been ongoing for years. Unlike Marshall, who has a patented protocol to push and profit from, the funders of many of those studies in many instances have not had such an agenda or financial stake in the outcome. I also note that Marshall has yet to provide any definitive in vitro proof of his contention about vitamin D, much less in vivo proof.
Actually, I am all in favor of scientific studies. Unbiased and properly conducted ones which are not funded and directed by those who have something to gain from the study results - as Marshall clearly does. I have great respect for John Cannell and the Vitamin D council and I note that Cannell has no products or protocols that they seek to personally gain from.
doesn't it bother you at all that so many studies are published on pubmed touting vit d? along side studies with how great vaccination is, and how fluoride is great for bones and teeth, and how prozac is harmless and helps "balence" people's emotional issues... etc etc? none of it can really be trusted. each individual must do two things. 1). understand both sides of the issue very well and (2) find a way to get yourself tested. then you will know, and won't have to wonder. and, can't be taken advantage of.
Oh god...here we go again...the slippery slope argument.
The fact remains that the MP is a very dangerous, risky protocol, a google search will confirm that. You won't ever hear that from the megalomaniacal Marshall, or his devoted Amy Proal however, as disagreement has never been allowed on the MP site.
Meanwhile, many desperate patients have had their health ruined, (some with near kidney failure) many of them former volunteers who had hoped their health would improve, yet are now banned from his site for telling the truth.
And finally, as mentioned above, their repeated description of vitamin d as being immunosuppressive, is a LIE.
Gary Null's a pretty smart guy. I think I'm gonna sue myself too because I consumed some wheatgrass that I should have thrown away but was cut over two weeks before. I got nauseous, couldn't stand the smell of WG for weeks - and, OK, almost died (or felt like it).
I'll have to start digging in my trash for bank statements to see how much money I might be able to sue myself for. No use trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip..
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Too much of a good thing nearly killed Gary Null 
