With all due respect, I just don't know how to respond to what you wrote. I see it is full of deep feeling but I don't understand what you are saying except possibly for the part where you said: "...if the church are christian become like this fruit of love and no lies i will join you etenaly" All I can say to that is: "I wouldn't hold my breath". lol I don't believe that will ever happen. It is getting worse and worse, not better, at least as I see it. It's a marketplace selling, at best, what should be freely given and, at worst, selling false information with their "how to.." books and seminars. But, like I said before, it is playing it's part. A very effective tool to turn people off. But, it hasn't turned me off. It just tells me that it is not the real deal so, for me, it doesn't figure into the equation at all.
All I know, from my own experience, is that, when one is a seeker of truth, it is a very personal thing and a very lonely path. They will find no crowds around them except, perhaps, those who would try to discourage them in their quest because truth makes manifest. It exposes, not only where we are at in the depth of our soul, but also where the world around us is at and that can be scary and can shake us to our core. And who wants that? Or who wants to be around someone like that? Only one who values truth above exposure or above their "comfort" zone.
I don't believe truth hides from us. I think we hide from truth because it makes manifest whether it's spiritual truth, or even just the truth about what is really going on around us in this world. But people also hide from that too, at least, that's what I've seen.
From the article what is at issue is not whether there will be a "rapture" rather it mentions a pre-tribulation rapture, that is most likely false as it is never stated as such. It is speculation by Irving, Darby and then Scofield.
Today, dispensationalism is in a theological turmoil, having declined sharply since the 1970's because of mounting criticism. Grenz notes, "Dispensationalism today is in a state of fluidity. No longer are the rigid distinctives of the past held to with unswerving certainty. Many progressive dispensationalists are no longer certain as to exactly what are the defining tenets of the system that commands their allegiance."
What I find very interesting is the notion that anyone thinks they know what the authors of the bible meant when those men wrote the book hundreds of years ago. All christians, (and other monotheist religions that use the bible), could quite easily all be wrong about everything.
There is argument over who is a 'real christian', whose interpretation of some old book is correct, what specific meanings are the original ones. All ideas that no-one can prove one way or another. So what is left is a lot of bickering factions of the same religion.
From what I can see, there are those that know that the whole idea of christianity, or any religion for that matter, is wrong, but will quite happilly use the means of religion, and religious belief, as a tool to engineer their own agenda. It has worked for thousands of years, and continues to work with humans today. I think those people that control the religious agenda, are laughing at all the humans running around arguing over whether there is going to be a rapture, whether or not the bible is meant to be taken literally or not, whether the world is going to end in 2012, all the people willing to kill for the sake of beliefs, and not only kill others, but destroy their societies and kill themselves.
What a great joke on human beings religion is. Give the people a fairy story, make sure they are indoctrinated as children, (this often ensures lifelong adherence), and set them loose to build on this fairy tale, cause pain and suffering to others that don't believe the same, and waste their lives praying and worshiping some imaginary god. At the same time making sure they are giving money and labour to the churches, (religious businesses).
Religious beliefs are the mind viruses that you contract from your parents.
You're kind of funny spud. I agree with a lot of what you said here. And you're right about that. We all could be wrong. But the fact that there are so many "interpretations" of the bible all coming from the "christian" community tells us that we cannot rely upon that community as a source. We are left to come to what is true by our own love for the truth and our own personal search for truth and not rely upon what others are saying is truth. It is my firm belief that I am responsible for and will be held accountable for my actions. Whether one sees this as Karma, reaping what you sow, or happening at the judgment seat of Christ, all I know is that I won't be able to pull the famous Nuremberg plea: "I vas only following orders" in that day. (:
So, if I am to be held accountable, I want to be sure that my beliefs and actions are a result of my own serious inquiries and faithfulness to what I have found and not just parroting others or using others as an excuse. And believe me, if anyone has a "right" to use christians as an excuse it would be me. 'nuff said.
Intanet, I agree with your idea of self responsibility, and finding your own truth. I admire people who research and think critically about all belief systems. Taking your beliefs from others, (however well meaning they might be), is like having someone pre-chew your food for you.
My Mum used to say that she wanted to teach her children how to think, not teach them what to think. I use this saying of hers as a test for all new information. I ask myself, is the person giving me this information trying to tell me what I should believe?
Not to mention that is diverts there power. Instead of tapping infinite power from within themselves they have to get it from a faux outside source. The effect of this is to hobble the creative power of those that adhere to the diversion.
Mind virus indeed. All thoughts are just that....thoughts.
I have seen that too about it declining sharply since the '70s because of mounting criticism. But I don't think that this is because other views have come to light since then. These other views have been around for as long as the appearing of Christ revelation (aka the rapture) has been around. (1st century). But, because people for the most part, do not want to be associated with an unpopular thing (yes, it still is Jr. High School for many of us), it declined on this basis as well. Cooper and Jones have done lots to foster this anti rapture sentiment. So much so that many fear to make a peep that they believe in such a "ridiculous" idea which, also according to these two guys (oh yeah, I forgot about Quayle) according to these three guys, by one saying they believe in the rapture, that would also "reveal" that they are among the lazy, sit on your butt, don't care about what is going on in the world, good for nothing losers these slanderers say we are.
I know it is common knowledge that Darby was the originator of the rapture. I've read numerous "articles" about that but this is not true. Although one I read last night about Darby I found interesting. They said that Darby was shown the difference between the prophecies given to the believers under the old Covenant and the believers under the new Covenant. I have no problem with that since I too have seen that in my own personal biblical research.
Just for the record, I did not come upon the belief of what is commonly referred to as the rapture from watching a movie or from reading other people's books. As far as I am concerned, from what I have read in the New Testament alone, I see it mentioned there very clearly (although many will disagree).
But, like I said, I don't debate these matters because it leads to unhealthy stuff. If the bottom line is love, which I do believe, then debating can prove counter productive to that and it almost always solves nothing.
"I know it is common knowledge that Darby was the originator of the rapture. I've read numerous "articles" about that but this is not true."
Are you talking about pre-tribulation rapture? or merely rapture in general?
What is the basis for pre-tribulation of the rapture?
I have not seen it, Darby and Scofield speculate regarding pre-tribulation rapture, I'm sure others speculated the same thing before them, so I do not doubt that they are merely the originators on the first written record.
As far as some so called Christians being lackadaisical as a result of the pre-tribulation belief, I have experienced first hand peoples indifference with the pre-tribulation rapture as an excuse for their lack of pro-activity. Not to say that there are those that are not active despite their belief of the pre-tribulation rapture, for I have met many who believe in it as well that are actively helping those in need. Enlighten me I don't get where this perspective comes from other than from speculation.
I've met those people too. I knew a christian who was in deep credit card debt and went on a shopping spree racking up charges "through the roof." I asked him what he was thinking. He used the Rapture as his excuse. He said: "Hey, I won't be here so I won't have to pay the bill." Not only was it unwise but not in a good spirit of things. Those who use Christ's appearing as an excuse for their foolishness, wickedness or laziness not only do a discredit to the rapture but these are people who are not doing the Word and would most likely act the same no matter what they believed. But, like any group of people, we have to evaluate on a person by person basis or we run the risk of unfair judgments that result from stereotyping and generalizations.
It's a beautiful thing you wrote here. Thank you for presenting that balance. You said:
"Not to say that there are those that are not active despite their belief of the pre-tribulation rapture, for I have met many who believe in it as well that are actively helping those in need."
That's the kind of person I strive to be. But not despite my belief in a pre-tribulation Rapture but BECAUSE of it. I find the idea that at any future moment, Christ will appear to be a great motivator. It keeps me on my toes. It's like the person who just found out they have 6 weeks to live. I have heard that, for some people, once they get over the initial devastation of their short life expectancy, they begin to live like never before. Time has become precious to them and they begin to take life seriously and the important things come to the forefront like love. That, to me, is the best way I can describe how the pre-trib Rapture effects my walk with God and with Christ. This is the day to do good, to be kind, to show love.
Your question:
"Are you talking about pre-tribulation rapture? or merely rapture in general?"
I've read both. That the Rapture in general originated with Darby while others credit him with the pre trib view. Then there are the articles that accredit the origin of the Rapture to some guy in the 1840s (don't remember his name) who set a date for the Rapture (somewhere around 1842 I think) and then, when it didn't happen corrected his calculations and then set another date a few years later. They also accredit him with inventing the term "Rapture".* They also like to throw Margaret MacDonald -as a pre trib rapture instigator- into the mix. I've read her "vision/prophecy" and it has nothing to do with a pre-trib Rapture.
The internet if full of a variety of views as well as many false statements. Usually we like the articles that agree with our point of view. Can't help it. It's just how we're built. I've caught myself a number of times doing just that. But the problem with that is that it will greatly curtail our quest for truth.
*As for the word "Rapture".
In the Latin bible, the Latin word "rapio" is the word they translated "...shall be caught up" from 1Thes 4:17. "Rapio" is the word from which it is said the word "Rapture" was derived.
1Thes 4:
17 Then we which are alive and remain SHALL BE CAUGHT UP (seized, snatched out or away) together with them (the dead in Christ) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
In my original post I brought up a few things as well as the scripture verses that make mention of this event. I'll add some more here as well.
In my original post here, the first scriptures I copied and pasted (from 1Cor 15 ) began with vs 51... "Behold I show you a mystery". Ok, that in itself says something new was about to be revealed. It was a mystery up until that point. Until then, there was only the revelation of the dead being resurrected. This was the hope of the faithful believers under the old covenant. This new info Paul was ministering to the body of Christ (those born of the holy spirit) was presenting that not only the dead will be resurrected but those who are alive will be changed and brought into His presence. This context in 1 Corinthians corroborates with 1Thessalonians 4:16 and 17, which, in my opinion, describes the rapture pretty straightforwardly.
Why pre-trib?
Saved from wrath:
Romans 5:
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, WE SHALL BE SAVED FROM WRATH THROUGH HIM.
1Thessalonians 1:10
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, WHICH DELIVERED US FROM THE WRATH TO COME.
1Thessalonians 5:
9 For God hath NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 ¶ Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
Since it also was written that those born of the holy spirit (Acts 2:1-4) who are comprised of both Jew and Gentile (Galatians 3:28) have been delivered from the coming wrath, that would put this event when Christ appears to gather us together and takes us to be where he is a pre trib or pre wrath event.
In the Revelation given to John all the believers that are mentioned in THAT time period are of the 12 tribes of Israel (Rev 7). These would be direct decedents of Abraham, not those who simply bear the name Jew, or practice a form of religion calling itself Judaism or inhabit a land mass called "Israel". It says that THESE believers are sealed with the seal of God on their foreheads. (Rev 7:3). So, where are all the saved gentiles? Those who had previously been sealed with the holy spirit that was born within them (Colossians 1:27), also called called "incorruptible seed" in 1Peter 1:23.
There is no mention of them anywhere in the Revelation given to John. That is, except for Rev 7 where the multitude at the throne of God is mentioned comprised of people out of EVERY nation.
It says:
Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came OUT OF great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
To get into semantics, something I hate to do but, if I'm gonna present this, I have to mention this too... the words " out of" in this verse was translated from the Greek word "ek". I copied and pasted the below text from Strong's Concordance and Thayer's Lexicon :
Ek: a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds or begins). because of, by reason of, away from."
So, using these definitions, you could read it as:
Rev 7:14
These are they which came out (because of, by reason of, away from) great tribulation (at the point from whence it began), and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
But hey, christians and non christians have been arguing biblical matters for centuries. The Rapture alone has many "views". You got your pre-trib, your mid-trib, your post-trib rapture, your partial-rapture your anti-rapture just to name a few and all, supposedly ORIGINATING FROM THE SAME BOOK! The book doesn't settle anything. With all the varying interpretations, as well as some, in authority positions, using all sorts of mind control techniques to get over on the people to see things their way and make them their personal slaves (I've experienced this first hand), as well as sincere, well meaning people who are out there teaching but shouldn't be, the controversies will go on. It's a losing fight. I was in it at one time but, after many years, I saw only contention and strife come out of it. And I have been exhorted not to strive so I'm doing my best not to. Like I said, just presenting this for whoever is interested and, for the record.
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