Because he overlooked basic concepts that can't be proven from the outside of his mind, there is no reference point to show someone the truth if they are so flawed in their thinking. For example, you can't show a christian that people have different skin colors because of evolution to tolerate the sun in different places if they say 'no god made it that way' and ignore the basic logic of the fact of evolution, like someone did earlier.
Just like Hv for whatever reason has it in his mind that cooking is somehow natural even though it's impossible for the chicken to come before the egg. (How many chickens do you know that came before an egg?) I came here to make my points because Hv was the best hope for a medical professional to see the light, however as with all of these types he too falls prey to holding onto his ideas rather than logically trying to prove himself wrong every moment to evolve his mind.
It's just not possible at this point to show the people here their logical fallacies because (1) they aren't adult enough to control their emotions and biases, and (2) they don't actually want to learn the truth, but rather hold on to their safe construct they've created around Hv's advice here, and keep believing they have all the best solutions to their modern problems. Yes, it's unfortunate.
Because he overlooked basic concepts that can't be proven from the outside of his mind...
Which concepts are these? Please answer.
You answered my last post using the same superficial and lazy arguments you used NOT to answer Hvs arguments to yours. And he took the time to answer you in details. What is the matter with you?
...he too falls prey to holding onto his ideas rather than logically trying to prove himself wrong every moment to evolve his mind...
I don´t think you can establish what goes on inside Hv...or anyone else.
Why is he going to prove himself wrong when he has FACTS? What you may argue is that there may be MORE facts and some may be partial facts! But you have to study well whatever it is you are trying to affirm and use reliable references...and you seem completely impervious to these arguments. So many people posted asking you to go beyond your logic and cite FACTS with reliable references to back them....but you keep refusing to do it....so who is being rigid after all?
It's just not possible at this point to show the people here their logical fallacies because (1) they aren't adult enough to control their emotions and biases, and (2) they don't actually want to learn the truth, but rather hold on to their safe construct they've created around Hv's advice here, and keep believing they have all the best solutions to their modern problems. Yes, it's unfortunate.
They, as well as you, are stating their opinions based on what they chose as their truth, and also their own logic. So, why would your logic be mature and their logic be emotional and biased? And it seeems to me, that they will recognize any truth that can be shown from a reliable, serious and knowledgeable source. They value Hv´s advice exactly because of that! He knows where he is coming from and studies and researches and corroborates his facts, findings and arguments in reliable sources.
Really give it a try and study the harmful effects of cooking with seriousness and depth, so you can really be heard and acknowledged. It´s as simple as that! So again I urge you to go back and read Hv´s reasonings and take the time to study and counter argument. If you do not do that....blabbering is useless! And I tell you...that´s it for me...I tried! By the way, how old are you?
You seem to lack the same logical capacity the rest of the people here do, but just to show you the basic concepts I was talking about: Hv says in reply to me:
H: Cooking food can have benefi ... Sorry, we had to truncate this message! ... Click here to read it
I am not going to waste a lot of time with this one. What I will say is the cause of ADHD is UNKNOWN. And I have my own hypothesis, which makes a lot more sense than this garbage. For example the article claims that the opioids are downers (sedative), but the "H" in ADHD stands for HYPERACTIVITY!!!!!! So the eating of these opioid sources should counter ADHD.
And raw fruit is loaded with beta-carbolines. So based on the author's conclusions eating raw fruits would cause ADHD. So nearly every kid around the world should have ADHD since most of them eat raw fruits at some point in their life.
Again this is why people should get their information from real research sites, not propaganda sites.
You seem to lack the same logical capacity the rest of the people here do, but just to show you the basic concepts I was talking about:
I am getting really tired if your insulting everyone as a substitute for providing evidence to your claims. I have been really tolerant so far of your crap, but the novelty of watching you try to dig yourself out of the hole you have dug for yourself has worn off. Either provide the evidence to back your claims and stop the insults or I will ban you from the forum. You are wasting too much of my time and the time of others here with your empty circular logic.
S: Burning [the food] up is an analogy to cooking,
Actually you said "burning them up", which is a big difference. You can burn your skin by staying in the sun too long, but this does not mean it is going to burn you up. That is going to take a lot more heat and implies destruction, not simply cooking. Just like your repetitive references to "torching" the food. Steaming is also a form of cooking, so how is that torching?
H: Teach them to use a lighter and they would probably do it since they would not have to wait for their food to basically digest itself first. S: I literally never thought I would hear such blatant ignorance.
Apparently you know as little about sarcasm as you do food chemistry.
Look at how many predatory animals hang their kills in trees or bury it allowing the enzymes to help break down the raw meats before consuming them.
S: Again this is NOT cooking, as there is no high temperatures
Ah, but you are wrong again. I even explained this concept to you earlier and you still don't grasp the concept. If I leave a steak outside on a warm summer day it is going to be subjected to oxidation. Burning is merely an extremely fast oxidizing state. So technically the more heat you apply all you are doing is speeding up the cooking process. Since you like analogies I have one for you. People often think of a pane of glass as being a solid. But it is actually a "supercooled" liquid. Given time it will creep from flow since it is actually a liquid. Just because the process of flow is extremely slow this does not make it a solid. Just like a slower process of oxidation does not mean it is not cooking. Again same thing just is very slow motion. Think in terms of an ultra-slow slow cooker.
Also keep in mind that we are not lions, or wolves, or cows. We are humans. Do you know why wolves can eat old bacteria ridden meats that would poison a human? Because they produce much higher levels of stomach acid than humans do. It is this higher stomach acid content that kills the bacteria.
Kay, so what'd we do before we could make our food unraw? Yikes, guess this is all a fallacy and we don't exist, since we all couldn't handle the bacteria before we learned to cook or prepare foods.
LOL!!! Do you really think that all the bacteria that we have today existed back when man first appeared? DO you really think that our systems were exactly the same? How do you know that we did not have higher stomach acid levels like the wolves I mentioned earlier to kill the bacteria. Really, think before you post!!!!!!
So just because other animals can eat certain things raw does not mean humans can do the same thing.
I agree, which is why I didn't suggest raw beef or roadkill, but rather fresh, vacuum sealed,
But that is not natural.
frozen (for parasites)
Are you sure freezing is going to kill all parasites and eggs?
and wild caught (for optimal nutrient makeup and parasites again)
You really think that wild caught salmon are not contaminated with toxins? And what about the dangerous thiaminase in raw fish?
salmon, or free range organic raw egg yolks (not the shell, egg white, or yolks' sac), as well as raw fruits.
Raw fruits?!!!! But those are full of those toxic beta-carbolines that you keep warning us about? LOL!!!!! Again you should have done your homework from real research sites rather than propaganda sites and you would have known that fact!!!
Hmmm.... Naturally animals that eat meat generally chase down their prey and clamp their teeth down around their prey's neck until dead. Then they rip open the animal and eat the stomach and intestines with its partially digested contents first. Since you are so in to "natural" I take it that this is how you get your raw meat?
It's ironic that this actually supports my argument, that's exactly one of the reasons why it's unnatural to eat 99% of the animal food, cooked or raw, that people do today.
Actually not. You kept saying raw meats. So that could be most any animal. I would love to watch you try to catch a wild salmon with your teeth like a bear.
As I said before, we primarily ate helpless mussels on the seashore
Geez, talk about toxins. Don't you know that mussels are filter feeders?!!!!! They pick up all sorts of dangerous crap from the water including dangerous and deadly dinoflagellates including those that cause paralytic shellfish poisoning, ciguatera and produce dangerous domoic acid. Again you ought to do your homework before posting such ludicrous statements!!!!! These toxins are so much more dangerous than any toxin produced by cooking foods.
Once again the logicless replies by Hv disappoint me, and I'm wasting my time outlining all the flaws in his 'glorious' reply
You have yet to outline even one flaw. But so far I have outlined numerous flaws in your claims including my last comment. You must have serious delusions of grandeur if you think you are winning this debate!!!
H: If overdone. But you have this "torching" fetish, which is not required for cooking.
And you have this cooking fetish, the entire animal kingdom shares my fetish of raw food
Hmmm...... I love raw apples and other fruits. I eat raw peppers, spinach, carrots, watermelon, and so many other foods. I even go out and eat raw purslane growing in my yard. But I cook foods that should be cooked. So this is no way a cooking fetish. But you admit to one fetish, and I pointed out another. And as much as you seem to think that we have to be exactly like other animals it makes me think that you have a bit of an animal fetish as well.
And as we let raw foods sit they undergo a number of chemical changes including the growing of dangerous pathogens. So they are going to pros and cons regardless.
Um, who said anything about letting raw foods rot for consumption, LOL?
Where did I say anything about rotting in my quote above. Do you really need to change my wording to try to feel that you are at least getting one comment right? I guess so. Exaggerating was not working so now you have moved on to misquoting.
H: And again eating many foods raw can lead to hypothyroidism, which can increase inflammatory homocysteine that can lead to cancers, heart disease,.............. Eating certain raw foods can also interfere with other things in the body, such as biotin as I have pointed out.
Yeah, it's true
Of course it is true, that is why I posted it. And many of the foods you have recommended contain things that can be deemed as toxins leading to these and other issues.
I am not going to address the rest of your post since it mostly just more doublespeak. And requests for more proof from me proving you wrong. I should not have to keep proving you wrong. It is your place to provide proof to your claims that they are true.
Hv, this person cannot even provide any evidence that his diet is what our ancestors ate in the first place, and no evidence that they were healthy, or at least healthier than we are today.
He has also failed to address the issue of the fruits we have today, being not even close to the original plants and fruits that would have been available to our ancestors.
His logic is a joke and his theories have no evidence at all to back them up.
He has presumed to come onto your forum, insult and lecture you and the other members of this forum, and then claim he is being attacked, and all he is trying to do is to help people, Please. Nothing could be more insincere than this poster.
Please don't waste anymore of your time on this person, its not worth it, and your time is precious to you and the other people here.
lol, very true, as Hv pointed out, driving a car, even riding a bicycle, typing on a keyboard, and just about everything we do today, is not natural. If you take the logic to its conclusion, this person should be out living in the wilds, with no hybridised fruit at all, no cultivated anything, just raw food that you can gather by yourself.
His logic does not take into account that humans are one of the most adaptive beings on this planet, we adapt to our environment, if we don't adapt we die.
Please don't waste anymore of your time on this person, its not worth it, and your time is precious to you and the other people here.
I banned him last night. I got tired of his insulting various posters here including myself. It was pretty clear that he did not know what he was talking about, which is also why he kept refusing to provide real evidence. Instead he just kept responding with insults on top of insults. I gave him plenty of chances to post something other than insults and he did not seem interested so I did ban him finally.
Good move Hv, We all know, that for you, banning is a last resort. If this guy was really interested in helping others, he probably should of left his ego at home.
You seem to lack the same logical capacity the rest of the people here do, but just to show you the basic concepts I was talking about:
In my way of seeing one should avoid passing out judgements and labeling others. That´s a sure way to NOT be heard and a great flaw in communication.
S: Burning [the food] up is an analogy to cooking, portraying it in the light that it is harmful which it is. Hv failed to understand this simple tool of communication, and got lost in the first sentence.
Burning the food up is a passionate statement and that´s what you get when you are passionate and not plainly OBJECTIVE when discussing FACTS and data. You are the one to blame actually! Of course HV undestood this simple tool of communication, but he intelligently made use of your mistake...you gave him the opportunity to!
And you do the exact SAME thing you accuse him of doing to you. Here when he says:
H: Teach them to use a lighter and they would probably do it since they would not have to wait for their food to basically digest itself first.
You do not accept his obvious joke and "simple tool of communication". And, instead of using it intelligently tp prove your point, what do you do? You (passionately) label it as blatant ignorance. Dear, you are much better off using OBJECTIVENESS than passion.
Then the rest is ok, but again you are not too worried in backing up your arguments with PRECISE and reliable reference and that´s the flaw in what you are doing.
Again an example of passion and lack of objectivity here:
I had HOPED you were intellectually advanced enough to realize that this meant unnaturally high levels of beta-carbolines, as I said "can cause' not a single or two beta-carbolines 'will cause'. *
You cannot HOPE for your unwritten statement to be understood by NO ONE (and that is by no means a prove of intellectual advancement) when you are counter argumenting, by the contrary, you have to be even CLEARER and always PRECISE. If you meant to say "unnaturally high levels of beta-carotine" and said just "beta-carotine" it was your mistake and there is a huge difference between both statements.
I gathered some articles I think you should read (having in mind that to really study a subject you have to play the devil´s advocate always and get data from the many different sources and perspectives as there are):
This first one is an in-depth study with references that comes to a very startling conclusion....you should read ALL of it´s chapters:
The next one is about raw foodism and you can go straight to the topic "Potential harmfull effects of cooked foods" and click the numbers and find references for the statements there.
I can also send you, if you want, Dr.Douglas Graham´s chapter on cooked foods which is quite enlightening, but has, unfortunately, no references.
You see, Sselerom, the more data you have, the least "ignorant" you are. Get ready to STUDY what you are advising. And again I say, to study means to know BOTH sides of the coin and THEN reach your balanced and hopefully knowledgeable conclusion.
Because he overlooked basic concepts that can't be proven from the outside of his mind, there is no reference point to show someone the truth if they are so flawed in their thinking.
Funny, this is exactly how I view your line of thinking. Despite your hypothesis being proven flawed over and over you still stick to your flawed hypothesis. Even after I pointed out that the same toxins you complain about in cooked food is a major component of the diet you recommend. How do you rationalize that not being flawed?
And as I pointed out before with your long winded posts you still have not provided even one paragraph of solid proof to counter the flaws I pointed out. In all the hours you have spent posting the same misinformation I am sure you could have come up with at least that one paragraph of evidence if it existed. Thus your failure to provide any solid evidence just further proves my statement that your whole hypothesis is totally bogus.
By the way, non-natural does not automatically mean dangerous or bad. Is your computer natural? Of course not. Yet look at how much time you spend in front of it exposing yourself to that non-natural electromagnetic radiation. You should be more concerned about that than cooked food. So you better find an all natural way to get the word out about that dangerous non-natural EM radiation coming from the computer and warn everyone to stay away from any computers. You can make all natural cotton paper, and make your own ink to write the warnings using gum arabic and natural graphite. Then use a horse to deliver your warnings door to door since you don't want to use that non-natural computer or non-natural car to deliver the warning of doom.
As I've stated in the post you just replied to (this just shows you can't read) the diet is not based on exactly what is natural or was natural to our ancestors, but rather what is optimal in nutrition, which happens to have many synchronicities with what we ate for 99% of our time in this form, this is simply because we adapted to those types of foods in that type of manner (uncooked).
All of the weak statements you have about me 'being flawed' has absolutely no logical basis behind it. If I had written that same exact post it would have the same context because instead of having any real meaning behind it, it's just a personal attack, and a fancy and long winded way of name-calling. I replied to your previous statements, and gave you a well sourced research article, one with over 67 sources if I recall, about your beta-carboline and opioid misunderstandings. While this is just the tip of the iceberg of the things I responded to, it shows how your personal attacks are nothing more than blowing steam.
As I've stated in the post you just replied to (this just shows you can't read) the diet is not based on exactly what is natural or was natural to our ancestors, but rather what is optimal in nutrition, which happens to have many synchronicities with what we ate for 99% of our time in this form, this is simply because we adapted to those types of foods in that type of manner (uncooked).
All of the weak statements you have about me 'being flawed' has absolutely no logical basis behind it. If I had written that same exact post it would have the same context because instead of having any real meaning behind it, it's just a personal attack, and a fancy and long winded way of name-calling. I replied to your previous statements, and gave you a well sourced research article, one with over 67 sources if I recall, about your beta-carboline and opioid misunderstandings. While this is just the tip of the iceberg of the things I responded to, it shows how your personal attacks are nothing more than blowing steam.
I have had enough of your insults instead of evidence. The fact that you have been given so many opportunities to provide real evidence and all you do is reply with insults just proves my point. So I am going to finish going through this thread then move on. I have wasted two days now listening to your insults and requesting evidence that never seems to come. There are people here who want help and who are really interested in learning. But you only seem to be interested in arguing. I have been a lot more tolerant of your crap than the other board you tried to pull this on that banned you right away. But I have had enough of your games. You need to learn a simple principle. If you are going to make claims it is your job to back your claims. It is not the job of others to keep proving you wrong.
I have been a lot more tolerant of your crap than the other board you tried to pull this on that banned you right away.
Just thought I'd pop in and let you know that if you're referring to the Natural Healing forum, we did not ban him/her/it, we simply ignored him/her/it. ;)
BTW - I was just wondering how you knew about Moreless and Hv dissaggrements with you being new and all?
It's been awhile since they publicly have had a run-in... just curious.
I suspect Charly that this person is not a newbie at all, but someone using another username, to try and stir trouble on this forum, and well as Uny's forum.
If, as this person tries to portray, he is interested in helping people, then why not post of the forums appropriate to his topic, fruit and raw food diet, there are plenty of forums here that deal with just those subjects.
I also suspect that sselerom's posts have a lot more to do with his own ego, than with helping others, he seems to believe that his opinions are worth more than those of others, and provides no evidence of his advocated diet contributing to anyones health, curing anyone of all disease, or any evidence that this diet was the diet of our human ancestors, and that these ancestors were healthier because of it.
These are just my thoughts and suspicions, so people can make of them what they will :)
I haven't read your complete posts, just the text from hovering over the titles as I could tell they were complete garbage and more personal attacks on me, but to answer the question from Charly, I've read on this forum extensively a long time ago for quite some time. I don't post until I have a solid understanding of something, which took me a while, about six months to a year now, to grasp the 'truth' of this problem after moving on from this boards knowledge base. Before hv, I had been researching for approximately three years, which doesn't mean the slow-method of going through studies but rather the quick method of reading posts from people who have spent their lifetimes on the subject like Hv, and from reading books by similar thinkers, etc, and encompassing them all together to 'filter' B.S. leads, and finally have a select few left that makes sense. In case anyone is wondering, the main 'optimal diet' concepts that had some logical basis were all raw food diets, and then it became a matter of finding the optimal one. I found that optimal diet shortly after, and it's been four months that I'm on it personally. There's actually a whole community of people on a forum board (which looks a lot nicer than this interface) that I'm a part of and can be heard and appraised easily if I wanted, but my goal is simply to return the favor and try and help the people of *this* board who were involved in my own personal path to seeing the truth.
Thanks for being complete asses about it once again. :)
Also in case anyone else is doing the same thing I'm doing, the most important pieces of information to take from Hv is his thoughts and data on Ozone therapies, and silica for beauty supplementation. Most of his other reccomendations are rendered unnecessary on a proper diet after a sufficient period of time. I haven't personally tested if his ozone knowledge is correct, but to my logic it looks practical.
Also for the more daring rather than conservative researchers his knowledge on brain boosters like periwinkle is also worth searching up, as he does the best job I've found on the internet of seperating the B.S. herbs from the ones that are relatively safe and effective.
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