Hi all. I'm 33, male from Austraila. I've had CFS/ME, fibro and digestive problems stemming from the liver for 12 years. Late 2000 I got the worst liver/gb pain ever, which turned out to be sludge, biliary stasis and GB dysfunction. Even mild attacks of pancreatitis.
Ever since I've had terrible digestion, and been trying remedies to no avail all these years. In fact in 2008 i developed adrenal insufficiency because I guess my body couldnt handle the constant stress any more of the condition, hence im left on cortisone, which is a nightmare of its own.
Anyway as of Nov last year (2011) my liver detox and digestion totally bottomed out, leaving me worse than ever, extremely weak. I was in hospital for 8 weeks, with no answers. Tests mostly normal, except severe pots / orthostatic intolerance.
I am in incredible systemic pain day & night, and such weakness I can barely leave the bed. My liver hurts all the time, except when I eat nothing for a long period. I feel so toxic as does my brain.
I have never done flushes, because of the way that fat/oil gives me a lot of pain in the liver/pancreas. However ive become SO weak, and feel like im dying.. I now wonder if I must Liver Flush or something, as there seems no other option for me. I do not want to die at 33.
Any opinions would be so appreciated. Read my site if you like for details: cfsjourney.wordpress.com/7weeks
I don't usually post ever but when I read this my instinct was a very long fast with broths and juices. Your condition sounds so serious that maybe you need your body to heal itself.
Hi Valerie. Thanks for the message. I have already tried a hell of a lot of juicing, and I was only getting worse. I was having 3 litres a day of carrot apple Celery , greens cucumber. Also blended veggie soups with chicken bone broth.
I just continued to lose weight and felt awful. I got so weak that I could barely stand up after a few months (not that im much better). Ive had to go on elemental drinks (nutritional drinks broken down into simple carbs and single amino acids for protein) because I can barely tolerate a thing. It's helped gain a tiny bit of weight back and repair some tissue (I was getting mouthfuls of ulcers on the low protein juicing diet).
I continue with serious liver pain and weakness. I have tried so many things over the years and I have simply become intolerant to nearly all of it. Very, very upsetting at 33 yrs old.
Oh Chris, I am so very sorry for your condition.
May I ask, have you sought out any good naturopathic doctors there?
SO, than, most of the tests came back normal. Liver enzymes, digestive enzymes now?
Are you able to handle any adrenal support?
Have you tried "Digest RC" by Life Extension? It is one product that has helped me so some degree, when I was having fatty stools and orange colored stools too. The artichoke in this product helps the gallbladder, all inter relatd to the liver and digestion. I found a a whole article on this in the Life Extension, articles found on there website.
And have you tried a gently liver starter combo of Milk Thistle and Dandilion. It is nature's natural liver supporter, when others fail.
Like you, when you are in a real bad state, you seek antying that will help and something to hang onto to get you over just one hurdle.
Hi there, thanks. yes have consulted with many naturopaths and nutritionists etc. I have quite a few good friends who are practitioners. I would be one myself already if I didnt have these problems. Most of them don't even know what to do for me any more as I've tried nearly everything.
I can't take any herbs beacuse im so sick and allergic to things that I cant tolerate salycilates, amines etc. Natural food chemicals. When I was doing alot of herbal remedies, they did help some, but my asthma and allergies were MUCH worse. All herbal remedies are very high in salycilates, hence I can't use them at the moment.
I have taken digestive enzymes for a long time. Dont do alot for me really. Yes I have to take cortisone to live, or at least isocort. I use an insulin pump to deliver solu-cortef.
For the liver take Silybum marianum, commonly called Milk thistle or St Mary's thistle. This promotes regeneration of diseased liver tissue. This has saved the lives of people with life-threatening liver disease, and people with liver damage due to poisons or drugs. It is available in all health food stores.
Also take Globe Artichoke for the liver and gallbladder.
The liver can regenerate. Experiments have been done where 90% of the liver has been surgically removed, and it has grown back.
For the adrenal insufficiency take Licorice, also spelt Liquorice. This promotes the health of the adrenal cortex, and enables it to function properly again. It is best to use the 1:1 liquid extract. You can get this from Newtons Pharmacy in Sydney, or order it over the internet. http://www.newtonspharmacy.com.au/
For the infections, take Oregano oil. You may want to mix it in olive oil, as it tastes horrible. You can get this in many health food stores. But you may find it cheaper if you order it over the internet. Check for yourself.
Also inhale Eucalyptus oil for respiratory infections. One way to do this is to wrap a towel around your neck, and put a little Eucalyptus oil at the front, just under your nose. You need 100% Eucalyptus oil. Much of the Eucalyptus oil sold is diluted, and much less effective. See what is available in the shops. You can order it from Yesteryear Plantations. http://www.yesteryearplantations.com.au/
Do all of those things which are beneficial for health and promote immunity.
Have a healthy diet and lifestyle.
Have fruit and juices rich in vitamin C.
Avoid sugar.
Keep warm.
Spend time with your skin exposed to sunlight - when it is warm enough.
Don't do one of those harsh liver flushes which are often promoted on curezone. It could kill you.
I have been on all of these things in the past without success. Also I am so salycilate intolerant that all herbals significantly increase my allergies & asthma etc.
I was on milk thistle for many months without much help. Its great how the liver can regenerate, but for me its more of a serious detoxification problem, and an impairment of bile flow (stasis), rather than physical damage.
Again, licorice is another one extremely high in salycilates. I was on it for nearly a year before my adrenals totally copped out and I had to go on proper cortisone. I was up to 12grams a day dried herb, or = in liquid (mediherb).
Oregano & eucalyptus are both in the very high salycilate category again, which both increase rashes, allergies, asthma etc.
This is one of the many unfortunate catch 22's of my life. Hence asking about liver flushes and whether they may be safe or not, as I've tried nearly everything natural health has to offer. Organic juice fasting, tons of herbs and supplements for months and years at a time, all forms of glutathione, Far Infrared Sauna "" href="/c/?/forums/f.asp?f=454">FIR saunas, clay baths, etc. I have become intolerant to every one of these things due to progressively getting weaker. I am lost for what to do, hence considering Liver Flush beacuse its the only thing I haven't done (due to fear of the extreme illness it may cause, and the fact that fats cause me so much pain to eat in general). But I simply don't know what else to do.
Vitamin C has saved my life for many years, i still take 3-4 grams a day. I used to take 6-8 grams a day for 8 years, then it started causing kidney stones so I had to lower it.
You can check my site for the more detailed story: cfsjourney.wordpress.com
Juicing organic vegetables and fruits is very cleansing and healing in general, but if you use beets and dandelion greens - for example - you can target the liver more specifically, and it's a more gentle way of cleansing because the fresh veggies/fruits provide the live enzymes and nutrients to nourish your entire body and carry the toxins out. There are lots of free recipes online, just do a search for "juicing for liver cleansing". As soon as I can get a juicer I'm going to do a juice fast of several days because my own liver needs help and I'm scared of the oil liver flushes. I do wish you had been specific about what you used for detoxing that made you weak. And out of curiosity, did you ever do a parasite cleanse? Some people think
Another question for you is: have you tried castor oil packs? Although they're not a quick fix as you must persist sometimes, I do find them helpful. You can read about them here, there are also helpful videos on Youtube.com.
Hi there. I agree juicing is great. However it didn't work for me after months of high amounts, im not sure what's wrong with me specifically but it really didnt work and I got weaker and more unwell. I think its mostly to do with clogged liver/bile ducts with sludge etc, and even long term organic jucing and diet didn't fix this for me, not sure why. For most people juicing is amazing and the way to go.
I didn't do a parasite cleanse no.. but it's likely high amounts of herbals which increases all my allergies etc. So hard!
Mentioned in another post here already, but I tried many detox treatments including juicing, herbals, gerson style diet, clay baths, Far Infrared Sauna "" href="/c/?/forums/f.asp?f=454">FIR saunas, skin brushing, glutathione (one of the best things ever if you can tolerate it, but of course I couldn't), and coffee enemas. Every single one of these has made my condition worse over time unfortunately. So now I am worse than ever and not knowing where to go.
The last thing I can actually say I haven't tried castor oil packs, but am about to. I hope I can do them but I have a feeling they may be similar to all the above detox i've tried.
My understanding of ME/CFS is that it affects the digestive system. This includes hyper-acidity, waterbrash, nausea, retching, and vomiting. Waterbrash is the spontaneous flooding of the mouth with a clear, slightly salty fluid, which may be of sufficient quantity to require expectoration (spit). The source of the fluid appears to be the salivary glands. People sleep poorly, has unpleasant dreams, and develops an irritable disposition. There is flatulence, rumbling of the bowels, constipation may alternate with diarrhoea and a sense of weight or soreness over the abdomen.
Hyper-acidity slows the transit of certain foods and has the potential to cause digestive stasis. Unfortunately one of the main medicines given to ME patients is amitriptyline to regulate sleep. This drug stops food leaving the stomach in the evening and is a cause of biliary sludge.
To improve the digestion of food you can adopt a combination diet where carbs, protein, and acid fruit is not eaten together. You can google "Combination diet" and there are plenty of good books available.
Yeah you're right. CFS is often caused by poor gut function in general. Dr Kenny DeMierlier, one of the best in the world on CFS/ME theorizes that the worse the gut dysfunction, the worse the CFS, and he's sure right in my case.
I cannot tolerate amitriptyline or most other drugs for that matter, due to extremely poor processing. I've tried about 8 different anti deps to try to increase neurotransmitters and help with pain/sleep etc, never to any avail. Severe side effects at 1/10th tablets of all of them. Same with many, many drugs.
I can barely eat anything now so am mostly on just veggies with small amounts of beans, but mostly these elemental drinks (vivonex). Not ideal as they contain high amounts of maltodextrin, but also protein in single amino acid pre digested form. These have helped me out of the very steep severe spiral I was on, but only slowed things down a bit, i'm still extremely unwell. Hence asking about liver flushes as it's one of the only things I haven't done yet. I just don't want to end up in hosp with pancreatitis or something is all!
Have you been a vegetarian for many years? If you have take a look at the article below.
I had adrenal fatigue for over 30 years and didn't know what was wrong. I have tried many things in the last 4 years and went on a mostly raw vegan diet for 2 years only to become weaker and sicker.
I would recommend lots of 24 hour bone broth soups for you with a digestive with each meal. This soup with well cooked chicken or beef and lots of vegetables is a very healing food. I have eaten this every day for the past 6 months. I would also recommend a hair analysis with Analytical Research Labs and follow their supplements. Chances are you are very nutritionally depleted like I was.
Hi there. I haven't been vegetarian for years no. I used to eat fish last year and bone broth / vegie soups a fair bit. At least 2 or 3 large pots a week last year (when I could actually tolerate much more normal solid food without the horrendous effects I get now). I'd use organic chicken drumsticks in large soups with organic veg etc. Was also organic juicing at the time. Definitely cannot say I havent been doing the right things for years! Probably the 'worst' thing I was eating was rice crackers with hommus or other non dairy dips, which really isn't that bad at all.
I should certainly get the hair analysis though, have wanted to for some time. I know I have mercury issues (one large dental Amalgam has been ground down to almost nothing by night time teeth grinding over the last few years). I cannot tolerate though, any chelation! Except chlorella, that doesn't seem to hurt at all, but also doesn't help much.
You are in a difficult situation because you have a combination of things to deal with, and because you are allergic to things which would otherwise be beneficial.
It is difficult to know what to suggest, as you may have a bad reaction to anything which is suggested.
Think about all of the things you have used in the past. Try to determine which have been the most beneficial. Use those to promote some improvement in your condition.
Have you tried astringent bitter tonic herbs such as Agrimony or Golden seal, for the digestive system? They will also promote flushing of the liver.
Are you familiar with mucilaginous herbs such as Marshmallow, or Psyllium for intestinal ulcers?
When you try anything new, I suggest trying one thing at a time, so you can determine if it is beneficial. If you try a number of things at once, you won't know which one is beneficial, or had a bad effect.
1st thing is do not do any cleansing whatsoever right now. i'll add a caveat that if you had genius advice as how to cleanse you could probably make some progess but it would be very dangerous.
most of the therapies that you tried and were unsuccesful with were all cleansing.
from your picture, if that is you, you look emaciated.
the first thing i would try is hydrogen peroxide baths with a ton of salt added, perhaps a whole box of salt per bath.
the peroxide will start to oxygenate you and this will hopefully allow you to at least process some food.
you could also try just a plain salt bath as well. a half box of entire box of salt per bathtub.
adrenal fatigue and orthostatic intolerace plus the bad experience with the fir sauna indicate low sodium. with very low sodium levels, the body essentially shuts down electrically and you can't really do much of anything, let alone embark on severe diets or cleansing routines.
in the meantime, also you need to find some foods that your body will accept without causing too much disturbance. i am guessing some form of animal foods are required now to build yourself up. i think salty meat or bone soups would be a good start. have you tried any raw milk? or raw animal proteins?
some possible ideas would be well cooked rice with ghee and salt.
i would also look into the blood type diet for some specific food ideas according to your blood type if you know it.
no offense to arn because some of those ideas are good, but herbs like goldenseal could be a disaster for you right now. also if you start bitter herbs in your state and try to cleanse the liver it could also be a disaster. for a person in a very weakened state, bitters can sometimes just aggravate a congested liver, sort of like poking a beehive, and not actually promote any cleansing. goldenseal is a very potent bacteriocide and you could likewise start killing off bacteria or fungus while your organs are unable to handle the die-off.
i would lean to a high sodium diet, balancing excess potassium with sodium until you startt gaining traction.
one thing arn said is right, only do one thing at a time right now, and nothing too drastic until you are sure that it is good for you.
you can look also into ozone therapy as it is very effective with cfs.
Yeah.. I've not been doing any cleansing lately due to this fact. However only getting worse doing nothing.
Yes I've been underweight and emaciated since 2000 when this all began with the liver stasis/digestive problems etc. However I gained decent weight on cortisone since early 2009, for 3 years until Nov 2011 when the whole gut just got so much worse I could barely eat a thing anymore due to the feeling of gravel/sand scraping through my liver/pancreas, and stools turned pale yellow. Since have lost all that weight and am very thin/pale & underweight once again.
I have never tried Hydrogen peroxide baths, good idea. However there is no bath where I'm currently living which is frustraiting. My mothers place has one and I could only get there on 'good days' which are extremely rare lately. My bloods dont show low sodium. I put enough on foods i'd say. Hopefully the HP would help some oxygenation.
Yeap I agree that I need animal foods like fish or some sort of meat, but I just cant tolerate any of them. They really grind the organs and leave me the next day with much worse systemic pain and fatigue, hence why Im stuck in this situation drinking easy to digest elemental drinks (full of maltodextrin though), with pre-broken down amino's as protein. Meat, eggs, fat of all types make the constant liver pain much worse. Also muscle pain/general systemic pain & weakness. It's like i just can't process food. Even rice and veg cause the pain to a lesser degree. I think my liver *needs* to be cleared out somehow if I'm going to tolerate any richer foods, theres the problem.
I do take monolaurin which definitely helps the bug situation not be as bad. I have had less bug type probs since being on it. I cant take the herbs atm its ok, beacuse im on the low sal diet.
Ozone i'm not sure of. I had one dose of IV medical ozone back in Feb or march and I was SO SICK the next day. My whole nerves were buzzing/shaking and the stiff inflammation through my body with TONS of crackling in all the small joints was incredible. I thought I was done that day. I'd guess it caused a great deal of oxidation or something, not sure TBH, but it was awful. I'd hope the hydrogen peroxide baths would be less full on and perhaps helpful.
re the peroxide, you can also do footbaths if a tub is not available to you.
all of your symptoms point to metal poisoning, probably mercury but you'd need hair test.
cutler even talks about people who have salicylate issues as being a mercury problem. your glutathione experience also points to mercury.
iv ozone is not the way to go, saunas are the way to do it for men. consider this in the future, but it sounds like you won't be getting into that any time soon. i've heard similar stories from people doing iv ozone, but never with saunas.
have you noticed any distinction between raw fats and cooked with your intolerances? it is something to consider.
look into stanley bass's sequential food combining to put on weight. i knew someone who had their gall bladder removed and wasted away to almost nothing and the bass thing worked really well for him.
you might notice a difference too with raw proteins like sushi, but then there is the mercury issue again. raw egg yolks are very good for the adrenal glands. if this doens't pan out then..
try cooking the snot out of all of your foods low and slow until it gets completely broken down, this might get around some of your issues. even do it with vegetables, beans, or whatever you can get down.
if the raw fats work out then add a bit to juices to help ground it and be less cleansing.
i wonder also if you have considered the doug graham program, which is 80 percent of calories from sweet fruits. some people with cfs have recovered with this program. fruits are very easy to digest and shouldnt upset your liver but it could also cause cleansing in other areas. the easy-in sugars should get your energy up if you are able to tolerate the program.
personally i did liver flushes when my adrenals were fried, but i wouldn't recommend this to anyone, and i have no idea how being on cortisone would affect this. you could be in a stage where your adrenals are shutting down due to reliance on the drugs, perhaps you need to up your dosage?
you said you tried licorice... it is important to get a good quality extract and not just the leaves or even roots. the one i took was like a black thick tar. there are others that work but i'm pretty sure it has to be the extract. the plain plant can cause blood sugar imbalances and other types of havoc. licorice is also a cholagogue and will cause bile stimulation, so in that regard it can cause exisitng blockages to worsen. also long term use can raise blood pressure and imbalance potasssium levels. you could try other adaptogens like ashwaganda, rhodiola, siberian ginseng.
look into a good qaulity whey powder that is cold processed and hydrolyzed.
keep a journal too and don't get discouraged when things don't work, just move along to the next attempt.
And YES absolutely. That's one conclusion i've surely come to, is that I have rather bad mercury problems. Mainly beacuse when I take any chelator, such as zeolite (and even small doses), im much much sicker the next day. Sometimes it 'clears out' a bit, and a day or two after taking it my muscles and brain feel less toxic and slightly more energetic.
The problem here is now, that I don't have the energy to go to a holistic dentist to get them removed before starting chelation. But yes it was suggested by a family friend practitioner that this could be the cause for the gluathione intolerance too.
I've actually been trying to search if there is any slim chance on earth that a dentist could come to my house to remove the amalgams. But I strongly doubt it, unless I had many thousands of $ to get one here, so i'm kind of stuck there too.
Not keen on any form of ozone at the moment after the experience. The HP baths/foot are a different story though. Does it need to be food grade HP or can it be ordinary?
No difference with fats. Enough avocado will cause the biliary colic too. Interestingly, the least pain fat will cause is when its mixed/cooked with carbs - say oil through mashed potato etc. Much worse pain when its straight oil on salad or just meat with fat etc. Not sure how carbs tame the pain down but they seem to.
Will look into Stanley Bass, thanks sounds interesting.
Havent eaten raw proteins in a while, used to eat sushi a bit. It seems any protein makes the brain issues worse. People with late stage liver disease cannot detoxify by products of protein digestion, and even though my liver is not damaged/inflamed, it seems its processing, digesting and detox functions are extremely low. Andreas Moritz wrote me back saying he doesn't know of any other way in my type of case other than liver flushes to improve energy and vitality.
I would try a mild flush of say one ounce of each of juice/oil if it would be of any benefit, not sure it would work though.
Yeah i'll def try to make more long cooked soups.
I haven't tried Doug Grahams 80/10/10 but have read/looked at the info on my trails. Its interesting but requires a great deal of fruit I can't really eat like bananas etc (very intolerant). In fact the low salycilate diet requires only pears! BUT.. you're right. Fruit is one food im absolutely not afraid of. No matter how much I eat, there is little to no liver/pancreas pain. Thats because its so watery though with no fat or protein. I was on 3 litres a day of carrot/apple/cel/cuc/green juice for 2 months or so with only veg/brown rice meal at night, and lost a fair bit of weight and just got weaker. Not sure it would get my energy up, I am actually getting pretty much (just) enough calories now but my energy is still very low. Through the elemental drinks (vivonex).
Well my adrenals have been totally shut down since I first began cortisone in 2008. They were struggling as it was already, then I was on too higher dose for 3 years. I dropped it now because alot of my current problem is likely due to cortisone damage to the body. If so I dont really know how to repair this damage. But yeah I try to keep it lower, and maybe its not enough.
If I did/do flushes, i'd def need to up the dose to deal with the stress of it.
Yeah I tried multiple brands of licorice, most were similar. I used mediherb which is the practitioner brand of liquid herbs in australia. Very high quality and standard potency etc. Very dark liquid. All of them caused very increased asthma etc though due to very high sal. So do all those adaptogens though.
No whey for me, its made me sick since I was a kid! All dairy including whey always has.
I do journal when I remember to with this fogged brain!
i know someone who has salicylate issues as well, maybe not quite as bad as you but there is a lot of crossover between the blood type diet and foods he can eat. so you should look into that if you know your blood type.
i think moritz is a good way to go if you can handle it. it will be a leap of faith, and better to do a strong flush rather than a weak one.
if you are taking in a fair amount of sodium in your diet and are able to drink enough fluid then some saunas could help you out a lot, getting rid of metals floating around, cleaning up some damage. but you have to be drinking and absorbing what you drink, especially sodium. fir saunas are really good, but cost a bit of money and you'd have to get out of the house to try it. if you are in oz, you could sit in your car on a really hot day with the windows closed to simulate a fir sauna.
some of the juices you mentioned like zuchini will pull out heavy metals and make things worse temporarily.
i didn't mention the primal diet to you yet because i didn't want to overload you with information, but that is something that would likely work for you. it costs money for quality food, and takes a lot of dedication, but you could dig yourself out of a hole in a few months or more.
rice and ghee is a good combo because the liver will react strongly to plain fat, and protein also can activate your pancreas and gall bladder. but fat and carbs together slows down the absorption of fat and will not strongly trigger your gall bladder, so it makes sense to me, no mystery there.
a lot of people on the primal diet have dairy issues, but do ok with the raw dairy.
you could try something like raw egg yolk mixed with a bit of raw honey as a test, or add in some raw butter. don't put it in the same category as pasteurized dairy. most of the people who are in dire straits and start the primal diet have a similar situation with their livers not working at all.
you might do well also with just doing the cutler mineral protocol, but not chelating. he has a list somewhere on internetland with the basic minerals that all the mercury people should be taking, calcium, magnesium, zinc, selenium, molybdenum, c, b complex, etc in specific dosages 4x a day. that list isn't complete, but the real list contains the bare minimum for keeping mercury from damaging you. you should also look into sulfur foods and see if they aggravate you, i'm guessing yes.
give the salt baths a try too just in case those tests you took aren't the whole story.
i think regular peroxide is ok in baths, not sure, maybe check on another forum to be sure. drinking it is a different story though.
i wouldn't get your fillings out yet, your health is too precarious. wait until you stabilize a bit and then consider it. i doubt you will find anyone to do surgery in your home, nice thought though.
check into lemonade specifically as a drink as it can help a lot with energy... fresh lemons only, raw honey and a pinch of salt.
i think in ayurveda your situation would be an extreme vata imbalance which would indicate salty, sweet, or oily foods, everything well cooked, small portions, sunlight, no bitters or strong spices. something like mayonaise might work with some carbs. you can google vata imbalance and find 10,000 sites.
since you actually are able to tolerate fat with carbs, there are likely other combinations that will work for you if you keep digging. you can also try cooking or stewing your fruits in a bit of fat or ghee to help ground yourself. pears are not indicated for vata disorders.
i'm not sure if chanca piedra is a high salicylate food, but it is very good at relaxing the biliary system, so that's worth a try too. moritz uses that herb a lot with people. actually moritz's whole spiel is basically ayurvedic diet plus liver flushes plus some mumbo jumbo magic stones and chanting.
the proteins recommended for vata are white meats or white meat seafoods, cooked in some oil or butter.
you may also get some mileage from oil massage. you can absorb a fair amount of oil through the skin and this could possibly start to nourish you a bit. sesame or coconut oil are recommended.
i'd' bet that down the road you find mercury to be a much bigger issue than the salicylates, even though now you are reactive to everything.
castor oil packs might be good for the liver but i think it's a high salicylate food. not sure if doing it externally would aggravate your sensitivity.
Images Description Liver Cleanse/Flush Recipe Books Rules
Home
Help.. Possibly Dying - ME/CFS/FM/MCS & Liver pain 
Re: Help.. Possibly Dying - ME/CFS/FM/MCS & Liver pain 
