that, i believe, is all about unconditional love, the kind that a parent has for their child. it is not based on conduct, it is relational. it is a matter of the heart, of the blood, of the genes, and of the spirit. since god is a spirit, that is what is important to him.
the greek word which is translated "grace" in the new testament connotes mutual pleasure, pleasing and being pleased and gratitude - a genuine sense of well being. i believe these things are what are to be read into pauls writing, and not some lofty doctrine which requires much explaination and many fancy words.
jesus grew up and waxed full of grace, and the father eventually said of him he was well pleased by him. this can only come from the genuine closeness in a real relationship. it cannot be onesided, like the law was(taken to be).
Hi, trapper/kcmo
Yes, Grace is wonderful, isn't?
I'm trying to explain to my friend the superior role of Grace and the Covenant of
Grace over the Moseic Covenant, as the Law being "the frame" and the Grace being "the picture".
My friend thinks that Law is equally important and this has been going on for a long while. Just when I think he gets it about Grace, he goes back and stresses the Law.
I believe that law and gace are both good. Jesus said that He came not to do away with the law but pointed out that His way was even harder. Grace is like a man who is given the power to go the speed limit, while law just condemened us if we broke it. Grace gives us the power to live with a wife as a good husband while law gives us a bill of devorcement. Grace is allowing Jesus Christ to come into your life and live it for you instead of the law saying 'do this, do that, don,t do this ,etc.
how do you think legislators today write a law? do they have a very firm and well thought out standard in their mind and codify that completely? no. they take a human behavior that is already naturally being engaged in and make that behavior unlawful, thereby taking people who werent criminals before and making them criminals BY LAW. these acts that people were doing was being governed by something; what was it? they were doing things to benefit themselves, whatever that thing might have been. is making a law going to decrease their desire for that benefit? not at all. if they want the benefit bad enough, they will find a lawful way to still achieve it, or they will find a way not to get caught.
what you propose is nothing more than elitism. name dropping. i can smoke this dope in willie nelsons bus because i am with willie. thats not how it works. any time a person is seeking for themselves, they are working against the spirit. what you describe is not love, it is lisence.
I understand the law.
"what you propose is nothing more than elitism. name dropping. i can smoke this dope in willie nelsons bus because i am with willie. thats not how it works. any time a person is seeking for themselves, they are working against the spirit. what you describe is not love, it is lisence".
what I propose is 'the Law being "the frame" and the Grace being "the picture"'.
jesus said, "my sheep hear my voice." what does that take? a desire to save your own skin? i dont think so.
grace is all about the relationship. people get hung up on guilt becase they are GUILTY. that is a good thing. it tells us we are wrong. it tells us that we need to be forgiven. then it tells us we need to change. if you dont change, you keep feeling GUILTY. so then the question is, how do i change? that is when the walk truly begins. we cant change ourselves. we dont know how. but it is possible. in fact, it is expected. and it is not something that happens magically atht etime of death. how you die is how you are. and at that point you are either alive because you have been living or you are dead because you have been dying.
btw, i have been in radio and you might want to rethink your word picture. stick to the symbols in the scriptures. try this from the book of james
23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does.
living is a hands-on deal. if you cant take a scripture and translate it into real action, then it is not doing you a bit of good at all.
I believe both are good also, I'm only worried when a peron goes back to the law as basis of salvation.
I'm tossing it around for a radio show I'm doing.
Thank you
i have a friend who practices the mosaic law as a means of setting himself apart. he says that this does not in any way have to do with his salvation, but it is something he feels is a part of his diesire to please god and get closer to him. i have encouraged him to do as the lord has laid upon his heart and he is quite satisfied with the sabbath on saturday and the feasts instead of traditional christian holidays. he also eats kosher and wears a beard, etc. as a person who does not do these things, i do not feel it proper to advise him against it at all. a person can choose, and this is real freedom.
getting too wrapped up in earning ones salvation, for or against, is a rather childish point. we must all seek god for our clear conscience, not other men.
Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
Rom 2:17 But if you bear the name "Jew" and rely upon the Law and boast in God,
The first point of understanding The Law is to realize It was givien to The Nation of Isreal only. Paul is quite clear in Rm 2:14 "For when Gentiles who do not have the Law", it was never for Gentiles nor will it ever be for Gentiles. Rm 2:17 clearly states that if you "bear the name Jew" reliance upon The Law was for you. Why do "Christians" try to cling so strongly to something that is not their's?, it amazes me, but not really, knowing that the flesh (Old Sin Nature) wants no part of The Grace of God so it can boast in it's own self-righteousness. Anything but the Cross. "Lord please don't take me to the Cross, I'll be good and obey all your commandments I promise. I'll even read your Holy Bible from cover to cover and try to live up to it, honest". This is not only childish but it is outside The Will and Plan of God. God's plan for today, The Church Age is GRACE. Read carefully the following Scriptures as a starting point. Note the clear distinctions between Law and Grace.
Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
Rom 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
Rom 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
Rom 3:31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor (Grace), but as what is due.
Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Rom 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
Rom 4:8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."
Rom 4:9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Rom 4:10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
Rom 4:11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,
Rom 4:12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.
Rom 4:13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified;
Rom 4:15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.
Rom 4:16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.
Rom 4:18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE."
Rom 4:19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb;
Rom 4:20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God,
Rom 4:21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Rom 4:23 Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him,
Rom 4:24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,
Rom 4:25 He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.
This does not even begin to scratch the surface of the distinctions between Law and Grace., but my time is limited right now. I will post more this weekend.
how can you throw out gods holy word? the law is beautiful and it is there as our teacher to show us the things of god. what is a gentile? one without god. what is a jew? a jew is a jew in his heart, and by faith a son of abraham and heir to the promise. there is innformation contained in the law and the tabernacle which is found nowhere else. it is really quite sad that this information, which has been lovingly preserved for us, is treated with such disdain. i hope some day that these things might be reconciled to us and that we can see them for what they really are - the miracle of the words of god almighty.
here is a question for you. how much of the law did paul know?
1. why did Adam and Eve was expelled from paradise?
2. why did only 8 people survived the great flood?
3. why did in time of Moses from Egypt to the promised land its almost the next generation who reached the promised land?
4. why did Lot's wife turned into pillar of Salt?
only a lawbreaker needs law. so how does a one become a person who, by his very nature, does not break the law? they must become a law unto themselves.
any time control must be exerted externally, there is no freedom in that. a person will keep the law until such time as the benefits to himself of breaking the law outweigh the benefits to himself of keeping it. it may be that the punishment is seen as a fair price to pay. this is what happened in the temple system - it was easier to offer up the sacrifice than it was to keep the law in the first place, so the bronze alter got covered in ashes and the people continued in their own ways, never changing a thing. it may be that there are no perceived consequences, such as lusting after another persons wife in their heart where no one else can see. this is a denial of god, who can see the most inward thoughts of a person, and the person does not change because of it. jesus pointed out that this really is the same as commiting adultery, yet god does not interfere with free will. or one may have come up with a way to escape the consequences of breaking the law by hiding it. this is the sin of adam, the sin of harlotry - she eats(does the deed) and wipes her mouth(no one can tell the difference) and says, "ive done no wrong". again this is a denial of god and the bearing of false witness to fellow men.
this is why you see self control mentioned in the new testament:
Proverbs 25:28
Like a city whose walls are broken down is a man who lacks self-control.
Acts 24:25
As Paul discoursed on righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come, Felix was afraid and said, "That's enough for now! You may leave. When I find it convenient, I will send for you."
)
1 Corinthians 7:5
Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
Galatians 5:23
gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
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1 Thessalonians 5:6
So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled.
1 Thessalonians 5:8
But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.
1 Timothy 3:2
Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
2 Timothy 3:3
without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good,
Titus 1:8
Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined.
Titus 2:2
Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance.
from New International Version
self control is applied by the person themselves and is a product of their free will. people treat self control like they do the law, as a means to an end. but the scriptures say you have to serve somebody. what does this mean? here is where the rubber meets the road. the questions are WHO do you serve(the flesh or the spirit) and how faithful are you? since it is the flesh which is sinful and whose fruit leads to death and it is the spirit that is truth and life, then the flesh must be ruled over by the spirit. the problem with that is that the spirit does not lord it over the flesh with threat of punishment and fear of reprisal, just as our lord expects us to be as well to others. so, whereas the flesh is vengeful and full of fear, the spirit is kind, does not seek anything for itself, gives always, forgives always - in other words the spirit is agape(love). so being the way love is , that is the great quest. being like the father is the goal of every child who wants to please, who seeks the fathers praises and blessings, not someone elses. the rebellious child seeks his own, can be bought and manipulated, and is ultimately seperated from the father by his own will.
i will leave you with this parable from some of my ancestors:
A Cherokee elder sitting with his grandchildren told them, “In every life there is a terrible fight – a fight between two wolves. One is evil: he is fear, anger, envy, greed, arrogance, self-pity, resentment, and deceit. The other is good: joy, serenity, humility, confidence, generosity, truth, gentleness, and compassion.” A child asked, “Grandfather, which wolf will win?” The elder looked him in the eye. “The one you feed.”
Since I claim part of my ancesters are Cherokee and a good friend is Cherokee( a Korean war ace turned minister). I love that tribe and its history. Also think that the way the white man treated them that many will be in heaven. In the USA they sided with the union and had a great history in battle. It is a shame that they didn,t listen or feed the right wolf.
i have a friend who practices the mosaic law as a means of setting himself apart. he says that this does not in any way have to do with his salvation, but it is something he feels is a part of his diesire to please god and get closer to him. i have encouraged him to do as the lord has laid upon his heart and he is quite satisfied with the sabbath on saturday and the feasts instead of traditional christian holidays. he also eats kosher and wears a beard, etc. as a person who does not do these things, i do not feel it proper to advise him against it at all. a person can choose, and this is real freedom.
getting too wrapped up in earning ones salvation, for or against, is a rather childish point. we must all seek god for our clear conscience, not other men.
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Grace over Law 
Re: Grace over Law...Lunari 
