A 40-year-old woman was referred to the outpatient clinic with a 3-month history of recurrent severe right hypochondrial pain after fatty food. Abdominal ultrasound showed multiple 1-2 mm gallstones in the gallbladder.
She had recently followed a "liver cleansing" regime on the advice of a herbalist. This regime consisted of free intake of apple and vegetable juice until 1800 h, but no food, followed by the consumption of 600 mL of olive oil and 300 mL of lemon juice over several hours. This activity resulted in the painless passage of multiple semisolid green "stones" per rectum in the early hours of the next morning. She collected them, stored them in the freezer, and presented them in the clinic (figure).
Figure: Semi-solid green "stones" passed per rectum (top)
and surgically removed cholesterol gallstones (bottom)
Microscopic examination of our patient's stones revealed that they lacked any crystalline structure, melted to an oily green liquid after 10 min at 40oC, and contained no cholesterol, bilirubin, or calcium by established wet chemical methods.1 Traditional faecal fat extraction techniques2 indicated that the stones contained fatty acids that required acid hydrolysis to give free fatty acids before extraction into ether. These fatty acids accounted for 75% of the original material.
Experimentation revealed that mixing equal volumes of oleic acid (the major component of olive oil) and lemon juice produced several semi solid white balls after the addition of a small volume of a potassium hydroxide solution. On air drying at room temperature, these balls became quite solid and hard.
We conclude, therefore, that these green "stones" resulted from the action of gastric lipases on the simple and mixed triacylglycerols that make up olive oil, yielding long chain carboxylic acids (mainly oleic acid). This process was followed by saponification into large insoluble micelles of potassium carboxylates (lemon juice contains a high concentration of potassium) or "soap stones". The cholesterol stones noted on ultrasound were removed by surgery (figure).
A search of the internet reveals many health websites promoting so-called "gall-bladder flushing" or "liver cleansing" regimes. Some quote a Correspondence letter published in The Lancet3 on the subject. The 1-day purge usually consists of an overnight fast, then eating apples in the morning, taking only herbal tea through the day, and then in the evening a warm mixture of olive oil (2/3 cup) and fresh lemon juice (1/3 cup). Patients are instructed to then lie on the right side (although some say the left). It is claimed that the next morning the gallstones will pass in the stool.
We have shown that these flushing regimes for expelling gallstones are a myth, and that the claims made by some are misleading. The appearance of a letter in an establishment journal has been used to legitimise this practice for some time and the record should now be set straight.
We declare that we have no conflict of interest.
*Christiaan W Sies, Jim Brooker
Clinical Biochemistry Unit, Canterbury Health Laboratories, PO Box 151, Christchurch, New Zealand (CWS); and Gastroenterology Department, Waikato Hospital, Hamilton, New Zealand (JB)
1 Steen G, Blijenberg BG. Chemical analysis of gallstones. Eur J Clin Chem Clin Biochem 1991; 29: 801-04. [PubMed]
yes it does seem to reinforce your opinion on the blobs -- however, being that it was posted by the Webmaster, i'm afraid it puts the kabosh on your 'conspiracy theory'
definitions: for those who find it useful
anecdote....biographical incident
............a brief account of any fact or happening (often funny)
.............anecdotist-a writer or teller of anecdotes
I just read through the comments down to the bottom of the page and pasted your comment below the asterisks, so that you know the context without searching for it. You made a comment on interpreting biomedical research and using the gold standard in biomedical research.
Does the Lancet article you posted on the 40 year old woman's Gallstones have the characteristics of a randomized controlled trial used to obtain scientific fact?
To me and to most people who had a high school Science class, it would seem self-serving to require a controlled trial ONLY FOR YOUR OPPONENT to prove his point. But NOT in order FOR YOU to prove your point that the bowel matter that initially came out (in the case of the 40 year old woman in the article) was not some kind of green stone, but green feces. You give your opponent a harder scientific test to pass than yourself. That this is unfair is not even mentioned by you. Nor does it seem to matter.
Since you know what the gold standard would be, what do you see as the "control?"
****************************
Subject: Re: so do stones float or not?
From: resurrectionist | All resurrectionist's Messages |
Date: 5/25/2005 3:55:00 PM ( 29 h ago ) ... viewed 18 times since Feb 20 2005
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tell you what - a simple exercise in the interpretation of biomedical research:
what are the characteristics of a prospective randomised controlled trial and why is it the gold standard for assessing a treatment?
also another point that intrigues me - how is the liver flush an alternative treatment when it was written up in the Lancet. does the passage of time make something alternative?
Finally, something in this forum that has some substance. I'm starting to lean toward the liver cleanse being useless. However... some interesting questions about the article:
First let me restate the timeline.
A woman in her 40's who eats a lot of fatty foods, was having pains in her right side. This was going on for about 3 months. She tried a herbalists suggestion for the liver cleanse, and saved the green blobs that came out of her rectum in the freezer. Sometime later, she had a gallbladder attack, so she had surgery and had the Gallstones removed.
1. Is it possible that the liver cleanse helped get the gallstones from the liver and into the gallbladder? If she had kept up with the liver cleanse, doing it every 2 weeks, while also doing a fast and taking Gold Coin Grass, would she have had the attack? Would the liver cleanse have released the gallstones, non surgically.
2. If she had been doing the liver flush starting when she was 30, every year until she was 40, would she have needed surgery?
3. The paper says they did some tests on the green globs proving that it is made up of olive oil. Has this finally been settled? The green blobs are olive oil?
If you believe just this one lone study' put forth by a establishment medical journal, it is for you! I myself would never trust these journals, thy are simply a tool to convince doctors and patients that there is no alternative to the 17,000 dollar cut and slice procedure! The boldest scam of the industry! Unnessecary and dangerous to boot! I would imagine if any one made this kind of money on an outpatient procedure, advertisement and propaganda would be thier first attempt to secure such a profitable scam! If this report or story or fable sounds reasonable to you and complies with your pre existing biases then the issue is over for you!
But should you ever be need in of such an operation I believe that your common sense nature(if you have any left) to save money and avoid possible injury or complications, that this issue may arise upon the scene once more and you may just rethink your decision! Having an opinion is just hot air but having a personal stake in this issue clears your perspective and allows you to realy investigate and seek the truth, not just prop up some questionable paradigm that is finally being exposed for its backwards and profit oriented thinking!
Just so you know, I'm on your side! I'm a believer in the master cleanse, fasting, and many natural solutions to solve human diseases.
At the same time, I don't want to blindfold myself and feel I am willing to accept the truth even if it doesn't fit with what I want to believe.
I've spent hours going over this forum, and still have nothing to go on either way! It's frustrating to spend hours reading posts of people "arguing and bickering about who killed who..." (quote from the Holy Grail :-)
Without any kind of evidence. This is some if the first evidence I've seen in this forum.
How are we supposed to prove either side of the "debate", if this still is a debate and not people just screaming what they want to believe.
I'm surprised that there isn't anyone out there with some kind of medical experience who can run tests on these things to finally prove this? Why hasn't it been done?
I know the argument of it's all a conspiracy, and there is some truth to it, but I know there has to be some scientists who are outside of the conspiracies. Where are they? Can no one get in touch with them? Have they all been secretly murdered by the Health Care Industries to silence them?
I liked what you said about the choice of surgery. If it were up to me, I would go holistic first. If I had cancer, I would go holistic first.
I have done one liver cleanse already. I am in the process of fasting and getting ready to do another cleanse. But if the liver cleanse really doesn't do anything, why go through the bother? If it has the option of getting some Gallstones stuck, why risk it?
Maybe I'm just frustrated at a bloated forum with no answers.
So is not the proof in the pudding ? I mean do you allow one report and and a group of people who lose big profits by the success of these cleanses sway you?
Does it matter that these biased reports that make Science a minced meat of jargon and propaganda take anything away from these successful protocal! That article is a demonstration in double speak and self promotion! I find no real substance to it, yet it has become a conclusive piece of evidence for the establishment! Does it matter to you that many suffer ot the hands of these so called scientific studies, cause unrepaiable damage and a life time of chronic illnesses! Does exposing this sway you in thier direction? Does thier jargon sway you? What then is the issue for you?
The issue for me, is there seems to be no proof that the green globs are nothing more than olive oil.
Do you have any scientific experiments or articles that proves that the green globs are not olive oil? Any conclusive tests about the makeup of the material that proves it has been in the liver for longer than 24 hours?
If so, please point me to those, as I would love to see this proven false.
(When I say scientific experiments, I am talking about tests that have analyzed the materials to find out what they are made up and how they were formed.)
I would also like to see some experiments done where the liver cleanse was shown to flush out Gallstones safely and effectively and not just lodge them in someone's gallbladder, who then needed surgery to get them out.
I was thinking of doing a liver and colon cleanse and was bouncing around the internet to find more information about it.
I believe in a healthy balance between traditional and homeopathic medicine. I think we need both but you have to be your own patient advocate as unfortunately both arms seldom communicate.
I would like to add that as far as a Conspiracy is concerned I see evidence on both sides-- surgeons profit from cutting, and the naturists profit from uncertain diagnosis' and unclear, unsubstantiated results; both profit from pointing fingers.
As for the pics of the gallstones, and the size of the common bilt duct they would have to pass through in order to get to the small intestine to evetually be eliminated, the Gallstones looked large.
I have never seen it, but I don't get the feeling the common bile duct is a garden hose, so I am wondering what type of pain medication is taken to allow these large stones to pass into the small intestine?
I am not against natural cleansing if it really does something, but no ones wants to go thought a lot of hocus pocus for nothing.
Additionally, if I don't expel a gallstone with my liver clease, I will be happy, however after seeing the pics of the supposed stones and doubting it, I wonder if the cleanse does anything at all or if this is part of the healthy living conspiracy?
Am I still going to do the liver cleanse? I don't know at this point, but I will continue to do research on the matter. At this point I am trying to figure out how the various liver cleanse pills, drinks, herbs etc, prompt the liver and gallbladder to expel toxins.
I have done the Galstone flush. I do feel a lot better but then any pruging of the gut unless drastic ( ie Castor Oil is vicious)is usuallf somewhat beneficial.
However, I would be loth to recommend the procedure to anyone else , I am basically a scientist, so I read the Lancet report, hoping for some GOOD information EITHER FOR or AGAINST. but.
This 'Report'seems to have left a lot of stuff out.
It is scrappy.
It is bereft of real scientific and chemical data.
I've seen better reports on an analysis fron 6th.Formers.
It raises questions that are passed over apparently unnoticed and remain unanswered.
Perhaps the Authors were of the opinion it would only be read by Medicos ( who are NOTORIOUSLY WEAK ON CHEMISTRY)and would be accepted because it seems to be keeping the Medical status quo. Obviously it never occured to them that it would be seen by some who could see its many failings. Take this example>>>>>>>>
I QUOTE...>>> "Experimentation revealed that mixing equal volumes of oleic acid (the major component of olive oil) and lemon juice produced several semi solid white balls after the addition of a small volume of a potassium hydroxide solution. On air drying at room temperature, these balls became quite solid and hard." <<<<<
So they were looking at 'Green Objects' and produced 'White Balls' which did not seem to have the same physical attributes as the matter being analysed ????
This was glossed over, without a hint of curosity.
The fatty acid analyses were not listed or quantified or qualified.
All in all not very Scienific.
Everyone is left sitting on the fence.
I think it is best to take the stance that there is no Conspiracy theory, even if there is one, and look at all the evidence. Here's why:
It's too easy to chalk off anything that disagrees with a viewpoint as part of some conspiracy that can't be proven.
All this does is help a person prove they are never wrong.
What we need is evidence, hard evidence, from both sides to determine which is true. And all evidence must be looked at. Medical Journal's, Naturalist doctor's, nothing to be discounted. We need to put the Medical Establishment vs Naturalistic Medicine battle aside, and just find out the truth.
LOL what a pretty world you describe! At least here at the Debate Forums ! If you just want opinions why come here! I view these debate forums as a place where the medical establishment puts forth its propaganda and we debunk it! Thats just the nature of the ganme! the medical people come to curezone and and try to debunk alternatives to thier protocal! Their protocal as I see it is the accepted mass opinion ! They have driven consensis since they started using dangerous and questionable practices! They are the level at which all knowledge about health issues started at today! And by the looks of curezone and the multitudes of alternative health sites that people have given up hope on them through trial and error a real scientific protocal! Those who come here to debate and denounce really only come to denounce ! They see instantly that the average person here at the zone is way past being manipulated by normal consensis driving ploys and wind up turning to charactor assasination to those who really put them in thier place! To those who stand up to them ,it ther only recourse they have after trying the everyday ploy of jargonistic medical speak! If you,ve noticed resurectionist was an avid poster who would embellish post after post even if no one responded to him! But if you look again you will see his redundancies where ubiquitis ,he was obsessed with his one point and ignored anything that strayed from that and discounted any proofs presented to him as stupid! This is what a medical troll does ! The last thing he really wants to do is debate! he merely hopes to disrupt and confuse those new to the alternative concepts and those not quite sure about them! Simple baiting and trolling to distract and dissuade ! So a word of advice, do not come to these debate forums to make a judgement , all debates with med quacks are not meant to inform! That is why these debate forums where designed !Its a nice containment unit for med trolls, quite ingenious of the webmaster!
I am very grateful to the Webmaster for posting this article which hadn't yet appeared on PubMed when I did my search. it has proved very valuable for my article on liver flushing I'm preparing
are you going to be including a brief history of this liver flush. i thought i read someplace that it is based on some old chinese form of this. i don't know whether this is true and haven't researched it myself but i thought it might be interesting.
I don't know much about the history of the liver flush - I will include whatever I can find any information about. I guess it is also worth talking about the use of bear bile salts in TCM
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