I was in orchard supply hardware the other day and was looking at an electric fence kit for dogs and cats that put out a single jolt of 1000 volts,..they also have a kit for cattle and horses but looked way to intimidating....
my question is if getting jolted by this would have any effect or is the frequency wrong or harmful?
I believe its 60 hz and powered by 110 volts.
I heard of farmers throwing themselves against the fence to cure incurable ross river virus.
Don Croft has frequently mentioned that in a pinch, such lo-tech methods as electric fences, and even the jolt from a car battery, can provide such benefits.
FYI, I'm not in anyway schooled on the state of this technology, I suspect there may be many designs available these days for electrifying a fence. As a kid in farming country, electric fences were pretty common. Back then, the power source may have been AC but this was rectified to DC that then charged a huge capacitor, and the system was designed so the capacitor would rythmically discharge into the fence roughly every couple seconds. This means that if you were lucky to only briefly touch the fence during the charge cycle, you could get away without being zapped.... but I also remember a lazy afternoon spent fishing near a farm with said fencing to keep the cows out of a stretch of stream, and there arose the call of nature and the need to relieve myself, during which the wind just happened to blow just so, and the stream of leaking nature just happened to make contact with the fence, resulting in a doubly shocking experience that took quite a bit of head scratching to finally figure out :)
good story ohfor07!,...Im going to buy the kit today and try it out,..its only $29,..
im one of those guys where everything I buy has to have alot of power and punch than I can handle,...I know zappers are proven to be effective and they work great but im looking for something to really shake things up!
An ex-girlfriend had two young adolescent bullterriers. In their boundless enthusiasm to investigate everything with tooth and nail, they were very destructive. To protect what was left of the garden beds ex-girlfriend got an electrifier device and we put low wires around all the flower beds.
Keen to see if the device worked, I turned it on and coaxed the puppies towards the wire. As dogs do, they investigate with their nose first. The first yelped, turned and ran. The second jumped straight up and started running backwards in the air, it was like a cartoon character. It took half an hour to calm the puppy down and another half an hour for me to calm down. I cried with laughter for days - the puppies never trusted me after that ... ex-girlfriend soon following suit. Nonetheless the garden beds were never touched again by the dogs and grew beautifully.
Don Croft has frequently mentioned that in a pinch, such lo-tech methods as electric fences, and even the jolt from a car battery, can provide such benefits.
Car batteries are very dangerous. They are DC and they supply 50-100 or so Amps. The current is what kills.
There are many differences in electro-chemistry from one individual to another, so there are no absolutes. However, generally speaking, in a big picture sort of way...
A car battery is not dangerous.
There, I've said it. Oh, while I'm at it:
An electric fence charger C A N K I L L Y O U.
It is the current which kills, but only if it can get inside. Normal skin resistance is too high to pass much current when the push is only 9 or 12 volts. A 9V transistor radio battery can absolutely kill you if it is connected directly across the heart during open heart surgery with small paddles. But the odds of that happening accidentally are pretty low. On the other hand, the normal way I check 9V batteries to see if they have any charge left is to touch both terminals with the end of my tongue. Both my tongue and I are alive and well. 12V car batteries are handled every day by people without any kind of insulation or protection. The acid is far more dangerous than the electricity. So it isn't just the amount of *available* current which determines what is lethal.
Back in another life, I came across a new 90V "B" battery, used to power portable vacuum-tube radios (OK, *way* back...). It looks like an oversized 9V battery, with the same kind of snap terminals only farther apart. Laying my finger across both terminals, I felt the tingle in my arm up to my elbow. Based on other experiences, that's about the right reach for things around 100V no matter how much current is available, because the skin resistance limits the current. ECT (electro-convulsive therapy, or "shock therapy") can pulse as high as 500V. If you walk across a carpet in winter, touch a door knob, and get a shock, look to see if you can see a small electric arc. If you can, then the voltage is at least 20,000V to 50,000V. So, high voltage isn't always lethal, either.
Combine the two, however, and you've got problems. An electric chair starts out at around 2000V DC, to punch through skin resistance and literally get things (electrons) moving. After that, the voltage is reduced to drive about 8 amps through the body. The term "electrocution" covers three different death mechanisms. Getting back to the electric fence, the one to watch is cardiac fibrillation. This frequently is the thing which gets people who die after being struck by lightening (and yet, Lee Trevino has been struck three times...). A short pulse of electric current through the heart, usually between stages 6 and 7 of the heartbeat, can instantly knock it out of its normal rhythm pattern. 110V AC is a different matter. DC at this potential is merely uncomfortable. But current coming and going at 60Hz does an excellent job of inducing fibrillation.
Short form (thank god): The human body vs. electric current is a complex thing. No one aspect (current, voltage, AC, DC, etc.) guarantees safety or danger. Electric fence chargers put out very short pulses of thousands of volts, usually current-limited by the circuit design. One pulse, properly timed, can stop your heart in its tracks. Beyond that, you are looking at contact electrical burns, and potential nerrvous system, organ, and brain damage.
Well said analogkid. But I must ask. What are your thoughts on a 200 volt zapper which puts out a maximum of 2ma. I personally think this would be a good thing if it was used across the feet. I strongly feel that more research should be put into zappers as these devices may hold great potential.
It is the current which kills, but only if it can get inside. Normal skin resistance is too high to pass much current when the push is only 9 or 12 volts.
Grain of truth. Now take 2 copper tubes wetted down with a wet paper towel. Grab them with your hands and then run some wire to the 12 volt terminal. Can you say mediun rare charbroil?
Also auto mechanics don't wear rings. Some mechanics in the past shorted the battery to ground with the ring. The ring would heat up red hot in about 1 second. The DC current would grab hold of the ring. The screaming mechanic would usually rip his own finger off.
You do have a point but it the case you outlined it was the current that did the job. If the current can be controlled then you should be ok. An EMEM device uses up to 20,000 or even greater volts but it has yet to kill someone because the current that passes through the tube is very small. In the ma range.
We were speaking of skin contact with the 12V source, not anything else.
I work around multi-hundred amp power supplies all day, routinely strip off my watch and ring, and bump or lean against terminals for voltages from 3.3V to 48V. Still here. The danger labels we stick on refer to tool contact, not skin contact. My ring measures about 20 milliohms. At 12V, that 7200 watts. Simple resistance heating, very hot. But so is grabbing the wrong end of a 40W soldering iron. Neither have anything to do with resistance heating of the skin itself, caused by current passing through it from a low voltage source.
I think PZ said that using good handholds with saline reduced contact resistance to less than 5K. Lets assume I'm off by 80%, and go with 1K ohms. At 12V, that's 12mA, or 0.144 watts, 1/10th the power of a flashlight. One hour of continuous contact would be 0.144 watt-hours, or 0.000144 KWhr, or about 124 calories. In one hour, this would heat 1 cup of water about 1 degree F.
There is a long way between the milliohms of rings and the kilohms of the skin underneath them. The internal impedance of the body is very low, but any current must get through the skin first. It is a simple series circuit, where the current is limited by the highest resistance in the loop.
Of course a zapper is different because it isn't simple DC, but there still are several orders of magnitude between the max possible electron flow with a 12V source, and medium-rare.
The electric fence is like using a full body beck zapper. High voltage will allow electricity to go just about everywhere. Should greatly clean the blood but careful of the current as said earlier current kills. I always thought that a high voltage low current zapper would work miracles. Just my thought though. If I build one I let you all know if I survive that is.
This is all good info guys,..the electric fence kit I was interested in was 1000v. and I dont remember the current but do remember the label on the box saying that the amperage was very low for safety....the unit was as big as a digital timer...
the other kit was as big as a car battery and was like 50,000v. and could cover like 20 miles of fence(way to scary looking)
I remember in my young teen years me and my friend had 100,000v. mini stun guns that we bought from an army surplus store and chased eachother around zapping eachother,.(the things we do as kids.lol)..man did we have energy after being zapped a couple times,..and we didnt pass out or go into seizure..lol
I think what makes me curious and others as well is that having a zapper thats powered by a 9 volt battery seems like it just aint cutting it,..maybe for a 120 lb. woman,..but a 200lb. guy?
id deffinately like to see what a 100 v. low ma. zapper could do,....perhaps zappers over 12 volts are prohibited by the fda or manufactuers are afraid that someone with a weak heart will keel over,..liablity issue?
researchers have said that lower frequencies penetrate deeper and when voltage is increased they are even more effective.
A 100volt 2ma zapper should be easy to make and cost a little more than building a regular zapper. The people who I have read about curing themselves with fence therapy were using 10,000-15,0000 volt units. It should be human and small animal safe so check that first. I am not telling you to go kill yourself now in the name of Science because if you go who is gonna report back and let us know not to try it.
Analogkid I hope to hear your views as lunatics like ourselves need somone sane to guide us.
"...I think what makes me curious and others as well is that having a zapper thats powered by a 9 volt battery...."
After having spent a few years reading about the topic in general and, in some cases, in specific, I too have some curiosity about powering zappers. This curiosity was given a good jolt, so to speak, after reading how Don Croft had built a solar-powered zapper for his wife to take with her on a mission to Africa a few years back.
An idea I've been toying with but have not yet pursued in ernest is to experiment with powering a zapper from an earth battery. The topic of earth battery also gives me a lot of curiosity and interest and after some time of digesting and ruminating, it came to me to combine the two and see what might happen..... details to follow if and when they should occur.
quote:
Analogkid I hope to hear your views as lunatics like ourselves need somone sane to guide us.
***
OR, I can let y'all go on your merry way, and keep the deep end of the gene pool to myself....
In no particular order:
Earth battery - Last I heard, there is only one kind of "electricity". Electrons have charge and spin, and produce electric and magnetic fields. When they move, things happen. I did some reading on the earth battery. It looks like a combination of a traditional chemical battery and a 1-turn transformer winding or loop antenna. Depending on the writer, it is either a 1V, low current, relatively high output impedance (in other words, not so hot) battery, or a pickup device for circulating currents in the earth. Either way, the output current will be very low relative to its size. "Power a house" ??? Nope. Maybe a flashlight. I can't see hauling a dozen 4-foot pieces of 3" diameter copper pipe (with matching zinc rods) around Ohio, let alone Africa.
I tripped across yet another website expounding "scalar waves". Still don't make sense, and in the case of the earth battery, completely unnecessary.
Power sources - If you want to get the most out of any zapper circuit, you need to pay attention to the quality of the power source. Since a zapper tries to deliver current at high frequencies, you want a power source with a low output impedance *at those frequencies*. Almost none of the zapper schematics I've seen attend to this. Because the fix is such a simple and cheap thing, its omission gives insight into the technical skill level of the designer. We're talking about a decoupling capacitor.
In the world of circuit design - at any circuit speed - the rule of law (not thumb) is a minimum of one decoupling capacitor per chip. With higher performance chips, it is one cap per power supply pin. Even if the power source is theoretically perfect (and batteries ain't), the connecting path, be it wire or pc board trace, has inductance. This acts as a kind of resistor between the battery and the chip. Even worse, it increases at higher frequencies. This can have a direct effect on the "squareness" of the output square wave, decreasing output energy at the higher harmonic frequencies. The solution is to place a small capacitor as close to the chip power pins as possible. The cap is charged up to the voltage of the supply (usually 9V in zappers) through the wire inductance. But when the chip wants a lot of current for a very short time (less than a microsecond in the case of a 555), it can get it from the decoupling cap very quickly and at full voltage. It's like having two power sources, one there all the time and one that kicks in only for the edges of the square wave. 5 cents, visible improvement in the output. AC wall adapter, alkaline battery, solar cells, whatever - decouple the chip and the circuit will not care, and the performance will not change.
100V Zapper - bad idea. Ohm's law permutation -> R = E / I. A 100 volt source will "push" 2 milliamps through 50,000 ohms. For a constant 100V source, if the resistance is lower, the current will be higher. With a constant current source, if the resistance is lower, the current will stay at 2mA but the output voltage will sag.
I took two small sheets of aluminum, clipped my ohmmeter to them, and stood on them with bare feet. The reading wandered around a lot, but never dipped below 100K. At this resistance, you will need way more than 100V to move 2mA. I think PZ posted that real footpads and a saline solution bring this down to the 10K range. If so, now you're up to 10mA with a 100V source. That's approximately the peak short-circuit current of a traditional zapper circuit, and three times the limit set by UL. The good news is that the direct current path does not transverse the heart.
The problem is that skin resistance changes with voltage. The open circuit voltage of my DMM is about 1V at the high scale. Skin resistance has a negative resistance characteristic - rather that present a constant value rebardless of the voltage, its resistance goes down as the voltage goes up. Actually, the surface resistance of the skin itself is relatively stable; its the stuff underneath which changes dramatically in the contact area. The result is the same - ten times the voltage makes for 100 times the sensation, if not more. I have no hard numbers, but this is bad no matter how you look at it. I still remember the 90V B battery. Contacting the relatively thick, dry skin of the palm side of the index finger, I got a very respectable jolt. I would *NOT* want to feel this through the thin, damp skin of the arch of my foot.
AK, some of that was too funny, some of it went over my head, and perhaps that's where it needs to stay.
Truth tell, had never even considered taking an earth battery mobile, neither within Ohio nor to Africa.... but now that you mention it.... hmmm. The solar-powered unit seemed fairly sufficient for that purposes. Of the people I've read about dabbling in Earth Batteries, they pretty much build them with the intention of leaving them in the yard, which is also primarily the only place they ever use them.... but there was one fellow who wrote of having taken his earth battery into his garage/shop to have a better view and access to troubleshoot and further test some of the things he had been observing, and generally for continued tinkering. From what he observed, it was not all that important that the entire copper pipe be immersed in soil, but moreso just the inside of the pipe, and there was no wire loopign as you desribed, just basic house-wire type wire connecting one pipe (cell) to the next, although I think he did eventually discover that he got better operation when the lead + cell used a wire of one metal (like copper) and the end - cell used a different metal (like steel, zinc, silver, aluminum, etc).... he actually built a rather elaborate array combining multiple rows and colums of cells, each row was maybe 5 to 10 cells (soil-filled copper pipes) that were in turn put in parallel with similar rows of series-wired cells...... don't remember the specs on what kind of output he got, but on good days it gave him 10 to 30 volts or so. To power what? Mostly just himself, and this rings true with what I've read from other dabblers who spoke of the undescribable but otherwise seemingly amazing feeling or vibe to having earth-battery juice running through them.
As for the relevance of scalar, I can't really say. The simple lay explanation of what scalar is, not all that hard to grasp, but for me, the deeper technical explanation is beyond me, like it's of another dimension, where the relative few like Tesla and Maxwell are said to have dwelt... but lore suggests there was at leats a lay person or two looney enough to have visited such grounds on occasion. Stubblefield, for one, comes to mind...... but hey, it's only experimenting..... last I checked the thought-police have not made this entirely a crime.... yet.
Looks to me like there are two types, non-overlapping. One is a traditional chemical battery with dirt as the electrolyte. A common characteristic is the insulated outer surface, such as the one you described. You get so many volts per cell, no matter how large they are. Size changes the available current. Chemistry determines the voltage. Just like making a battery out of a potato or a lemon.
Way more interesting is the magnetic version, picking up Telluric current:
and the Sea Battery, a variation of magneto-hydrodynamics (Think Red October submarine). Mitsubishi actually build a boat powered this way, but it never got past the research stage. $$$
As for "the undescribable but otherwise seemingly amazing feeling or vibe to having earth-battery juice running through them."... This is why shrinks developed the double-blind test protocol. Juice is juice. If you've got an electric current which is measurable with traditional instruments, it's traditional electricity. I'm not saying other wonderful energy thingies aren't out there, just that the earth battery ain't it.
About Maxwell... This year is the 150th anniversary of his first great work. Maxwell is the reason most alternative energy ideas are met with scorn. He pulled together all of the mystical, magical stuffs that were electricity and magnetism, and a) showed that they were two sides of the same coin; and b) did it with traditional, rigorous mathematical techniques - all before the Civil War. 25 years later, he tied electricity and light together. Einstein got the Nobel Prize for his work with the photo-electric effect because he did the heavy lifting. But it was Maxwell who said Hey, lookie what I found, someone should pick this thing up.
Newton - Maxwell - Einstein. Max is literally the man in the middle, the link in theoretical physics between the old world and the new. He is the absolute gold standard of how to approach a new concept in physics. Without him, Einstein didn't have a prayer (which he admitted openly many times).
Even though I don't get a lot of Maxwell's work that did survive, he seems prominent also by those parts of his research (unified field theory.... all of it) that seemed to have experienced an ooops, sorry, lets not talk about that particular aspect in favor of lifting up a more establishment-friendly fellow..... like Hertz, for instance..... ah, yes, the sheer gravity of such situations...I sort of rank Hertz up there with other made-men from the sciences, like Einstein and Freud just to name a few from a wide field ..... yeah, they may have been smart and clever fellows to one degree or another, but they were also annointed in a secular-style, which certainly can do wonders for anyone's resume' and bank account.
As to prospects of the shackles one day being taken off free energy, for the time being it generally seems to be still mired in the same basic fate as other alternative inventions such as those for natural health treatment - it's inventors have a knack for falling off cliffs and their inventions have a knack for being burried from the public as quickly as they manage to pop up around the globe. But some of us can at least continue to dream that perhaps one day humpty dumpty and it's merry gang of nwo controllers will take a nasty fall and finally be irreparably splattered once and for all....... meanwhile it's back to the drudgeries of using effecitvely stone-age energy tech such as the burning of tightly controlled & mythical, peak, sky is falling, oh me oh my, limited resources of fossil fuel :(
Hertz and Einstein both got a fair amount of grief for their ideas. I'm not sure annointed is the right term, but they both achieved world-wide respect because their ideas stood up to world-wide scrutiny. And neither one made a dime off of those ideas, unless you count a professor's salary.
Side note: Einstein didn't get the Nobel Prize for his Relativity work, because he thought Bohr was wrong. On the other hand, Marconi lost the basic radio patents (to Tesla) because he thought Hertz was wrong.
Freud was just butchered in both the scientific and lay press. Like Edison, Freud got most of the details wrong. But I think he deserves a positive place in history for opening up a new universe of questions and ideas.
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