What does everyone think of the wave of speakers like Wayne Dyer, Deepak Chopra, Neal Donald Walsh (don't know if I got that one right; that guy who wrote Conversations with God), etc., etc.?
Just wanted to say Hi and welcome. I wouldn't be any help on your question though because personally I have never heard of any of them. But just wanted to say Hi anyway! :) Caitlin Lorraine
Hi!
Your message doesn't tell us anything about you and what your perspectives are, so we are limited to answering you from withtin the context of this forum's title: Biblical Christianity.
Wayne Dyer is a New Age author. Deeprak Chopra has an Amalgam of self-help derived from New Age, Budhism and Hinduism. Wayne Dyer's Conversations With God are anything but Biblical Christianity. So if your question is are these individuals or their organizations OK form a Christian perspective, the answer is a most resounding no.
If your question is whether these are things that have some validity for people's lives? I personally don't know, but obviously many people have flocked to them and the books are best sellers.
May the peace of Christ which transcends all understanding keep your mind in Him, and deliver you from all doubts, fears and afflictions. May you prosper and be in good health.
I was a new age teacher. I interviewed Deepak Chopra for a magazine article years ago. I read Wayne Dyer and just about all the major new age writers. I was on the radio, in the newspapers, etc. I am now a born again believer in Christ. I can tell you that the new age movement and the teachings that come out if it had no positive impact on my life or anyone else I knew. I was in touch with some of the major writers of today.
It is my observation that the beliefs and philosophies of the new age movement and the religions it stems from lead to unhappiness and emptiness. There's a scripture I think of - Always learning but never coming to the knowledge of truth. That's what those teachers are basically sharing. They miss the biggest and most important thing in life. There is truth. Jesus is the way, the life and the truth.
Life with Christ has been utterly amazing and so full. Full of growth, increased peace, increased blessing, increased love in my life - giving and receiving, and a wonderful daily experience of Gods presence. There is no comparison. Day by day seeking God, reading the bible, praying, listening for Him, living for Him - no comparison. It's what we were created for.
Thank you for your post, I enjoyed what you had to say! Jesus certainly is so fulfilling, mind, body and spirit.
Amazing isn't it all of these healings that they claim comes from Deepak's methods and such? I had been sent an email about the Healing Codes, had listened to their call and was interested--but still didn't know enough about it. The guy, Paul, was a preacher and said God had given him the codes but you didn't have to believe in God to use the codes. In one of their later emails they were touting either Deepak or Wayne's methods as being compliementary to theirs, when I read that I unsubscribed. If they were really from God I would think a "preacher" would have enough discernment to not recommend a New Age method to compliment his. Godly methods and new age methods just don't seem to go together...I know God did create energy paths in our bodies and He is the Creator of wonders unimaginable in just our bodies but I'm not sure what the Godly way to use energy is yet. Anyway, good to see you here #520 and please post more often. :) I'll have to check out your site here shortly...
Nomad, thanks for your comments. That's really nice!
That was some really good discernment on your part about those teachings! It is astonishing how much deception there is and how many folks are deceived. But then the bible says in the end times even the very elect would be deceived.
I learned early on in my Christian walk (after being really deceived myself because I was an easy target and lacked knowledge), that the true test of truth is this: Does it match up with the bible!!!??? And not only does it match up with the bible, but does it match up with the consistent message of the bible. There are many well meaning Christians who take things out of context and make doctrine. There are many folks off into "spirituality" and false religions who make up their own theories about God and call it fact.
I believe the bible is the perfect word of God - God breathed through people. There are a lot of very outstanding books that talk about the overwhelming evidence that the bible is really the word of God. After much study I'm convinced it's true.
Not to mention, God has utterly changed my life in ways that no other religion I explored came close to. Thank God I have God in my life - I find that the closer I draw to Him, the more I take His word and try to live it, the more my life is blessed. It's really amazing. I don't even know how people live without Him. Nothing comes close to the life lived with Christ.
I think you have a really awesome testimony, having experienced other religions and the emptiness you felt and then finding how Jesus filled that empty void. Joyce Meyer says oftentimes how she thinks every human has a God-shaped hole in their soul that nothing but Him can fill. I think people try to keep themselves so busy with work, making money, listening to music, watching tv, sports, ect. so that they do not have to be quiet and feel that emptiness. I think in the quiet in the darkness before sleep comes in they must still feel it. When true conversion occurs (I think we have a lot of false converts today :( terribly sad...) that empty void is filled with the Holy Spirit and no matter how hard life gets they feel that fullness and His peace and because of that they can make it through. I'm like you, I don't know how anyone lives without Almighty God on their side! Especially through the hard times.
I was thinking about orgone energy when I wrote, I have a terminator zapper with an orgone coil in it and was wondering exactly what it was. It's been years since I had bought it and did the research, some thing tend to stay in my mind and other sink away...
Also I was interested in what you had said about kinesology. From what I remembered reading a few years ago it is magnetic also? Postive and negatives. Our naturopath in no way seems new agey and we've always used Applied Kinesology in the form of muscle testing with fingers to see what herbs the body needs and what area of the body is weaker and needs building up. I would be very interested to know what you have learned about this and some scriptures too? I do not want to be ignorantly partaking of a demonic practice.
I like your analogy about the poision. For my little fellers class I used the analogy of brownies, no one would eat brownies with a little bit of manure in them. And so they shouldn't watch movies, play video games or use words that have just a "little bit" of sin in them. Because there really is no such thing as a little bit of sin, sin is sin and contaminates the whole thing.
Well, it seems I had written a lot of other things the other two times but I cannot remember them now. Perhaps I was not meant to write them. :) I've enjoyed your posts, and thank you for sharing your divine wisdom God has given you. God bless, Caitlin Lorraine
Great questions! I'll try to answer at least in part this morning and I'll do some more later. applied kinesiology is created and based on theories that oppose the truth of the bible.
Now sometimes people attach occultic ideas to a treatment that is clearly scientifically valid, so it may be ok if you approach it as Science which identifies something God actually created, and don't take on the occultic side of it. Often though with occultic practices, it's either not giving valid results or it's working through demonics and not the scientific laws that God created.
So when you practice an occultic health technique, you open the door to demonic oppression in your life. Because there is sin against God, there can be a negative impact, as with all sin. (Of course, the way out is to repent, turn away from that practice, and cast out anything that came in).
Here's some segements I pulled on an article about applied kineseology from the Watchman Expositor:
"The father of applied kinesiology is George Goodheart, a Michigan chiropractor who developed the concept.
He combined elements of psychic philosophy, Chinese Taoism, and "early chiropractic theory concerning the body's supposed Innate Intelligence with ancient Eastern practices designed to regulate supposed mystical life energies within the body" (Can You Trust Your Doctor, 157).
Goodheart was involved with the occult.
He is reported to have developed his elaborate charts showing relationship of specific organs and acupuncture meridians to certain nutrients and herbs (at least in part) through psychic powers.
John Ankerberg and John Weldon quote research by Robert Pollack and Edward Kravitz (Nutrition in Oral Health and Disease, p. 310) providing evidence that Goodheart discoverd applied kinesiology by using his gift as a "psychic (personal communication) and developed his charts by this means" (Ibid).
Ankerberg and Weldon confirmed this report through contacts with the president of the National Council Against Health Fraud, Dr. William Jarvis, who also serves as professor of Public Health and Preventive Medicine, Loma Linda University Medical School in California.
Jarvis verified that Goodheart indeed relied on psychic powers in the development of applied kinesiology (Ibid).
Goodheart published his theories in a series of reports (Workshop Procedure Manuals, 1964, 1972, and 1973-76). His books along with works of later proponents (John Thie, Touch for Health, Joseph Donahue, Transitions, and John Diamond, Your Body Doesn't Lie.) describe the theory behind Goodheart's discoveries.
"He combined the concept of "innate intelligence" with the Eastern religious concept of energy (ch'i) and the idea that muscles reflex (reflect back) the condition of each of the various body organs via the chi's meridians.
"`Innate intelligence' is described as spiritual intelligence which runs the body and is connected to the universal intelligence though the nervous system.
"His theory is that the status of all body organs and systems can be determined by checking the resistance of a specific muscle" (Kinesiology [Muscle Response Testing], p.1) a Monograph published by Christians Investigating New Age Medicine [CINAM], an Asheville, South Carolina based research and information organization)...
A scientific double-blind pilot study, however, was conducted to test the claims of applied kinesiology. It was conducted by the ALTA Foundation for Sports Medicine Research in Santa Monica, California.
Published in the June 1988 Journal of the American Dietetic Association, the study tested, "three experienced applied kinesiologists for four nutrients (thiamin, zinc, vitamin A, and ascorbic acid). The results obtained by those applied kinesiologists were compared with (a) one another, (b) standard laboratory tests for nutrient status, and (c) computerized isometric muscle testing.
"Statistical analysis yielded no significant interjudge reliability, no significant correlation between the testers and standard biochemical tests for nutrient status, and no significant correlation between mechanical and manual determinations of relative muscle strength" ("Applied Kinesiology Unreliable for Assessing Nutrient Status," Journal of the American Dietetic Association, Vol. 88, No. 6, p. 698).
In other words, the applied kinesiologists did not agree with each other, failed to discern true nutrient differences, and could not even truly judge real differences in muscle strength.
The abstract concluded, "the results of this study indicated that the use of applied kinesiology to evaluate nutrient status is no more useful than random guessing" (Ibid)...
If there is no legitimate physical explanation as to how undigested (and in some cases unopened) vitamins can instantly strengthen the arm muscles, than one is only left with a psychic, spiritual, or psychosomatic explanation.
Faithful clients of applied kinesiologists often counter that these vitamins and herbs are good for them.
The truth is that products sold by applied kinesiologists may or may not be heathy and beneficial but pulling ones finger, or arm (or leg??) is not a legitimate way to differentiate."
END OF ARTICLE PORTION
Any time you are dealing with concepts including chi, meridians, etc - you are dealing with "Universal Energy" replacing God. You are tapping into eastern and new age religion.
Now on the other hand, our bodies are created as electrical, energetic things. Certain types of energy impact our bodies and can impact disease in our bodies. For example, MRI's use magnetic energy. The sound waves that come through the radio can hurt your ears if you turn it up to loud, etc. I believe that they use sound waves to dissolve kidney stones, etc.
God created various kinds of waves and energy that are invisible but have substance and impact. It's my personal opinion that if you can use these energies to help the body get healthy, it's ok.
Of course the optimal way to live life would be to receive and keep devine health and healing through faith in God! However I believe that in God's mercy He allows us to use what He's created to sustain us.
There are many scriptures that call use of psychic ability a sin and punishable by death in the old testament, and requiring repentance in the new testament. Also, any practice that utilizes other religious beliefs and opposes the truth of God would clearly be a sin. In the old testament it would have been cause for death as well. In the new - repentance.
Hope this answers. Please feel free to follow up with any questions - I'll come back for the other questions later.
Hi 520,
Thanks for the reply and time spent on it. Sorry for such a long delay in getting back with you. I would remember from time to time but never realized how much time had passed! It seems like just a few days ago.
Yes, I definetly think God's supernatural healing is the best! :) I also think He wants us to take reasonable care of ourselves since we are the residing temple of the Holy Spirit. My "up-keep" is fairly simple--plant based multi-vitamin, clean water, nutrition rich foods with moderation of unhealthy foods, colon cleanse and liver cleanse once or twice a year, extra oxygen, and I SHOULD exercise (I'm really bad about this one). Simple and moderation is not something I arrived at instantly, I used to be quite overboard! I was also the same way with God's healing when I first realized it was His will to heal, I thought it was this complicated process that took all of these moves on the chess board and you may or may not hit the jackpot even though I believed wether I did or not it was God's will. Now I realize how simple it is, that just like God made being saved by Jesus simple enough anyone could receive it-- healing is the same way--simply receiving. Though I still have one problem I am seeking healing for--my teeth. But I know it is my doubt standing in the way, something so tangible that I can physically feel the cavities with my tongue, see them with my eyes (unlike my other problems, they were always internal)--well my brain just stands in the way. But as soon as my faith meets what God has already done in the spiritual realm, they too will be healed.
I wanted to address your question about the godly use of energy but didn't have time last night. It's a really complex subject, and each technique should be considered carefully, because when you start to dabble in something with demonic elements, you open the door to the devil to mess with your life. Boy have I experienced this as a former new age teacher. Even in my Christian walk I've messed up and tried something I wasn't sure about. I've really experienced the demonic oppressions that come with that!
It's like this. If I gave you a drink of water, and put a small amount of poison in it, would you drink it? After all, it's just a little poison. Of course not! So when a technique has any element in it that is in any way in opposition to the word of G-d - avoid it.
So for example - anything that involves psychic ability or thought projection which is expressly forbidden by God would not be in line with God. (I am convinced that psychic knowledge generally comes from satan, though there is valid revelation and knowledge that comes from God). An example of an ungodly medical practice would be kineseolgy, reiki or the pendulum practice. Anything that involves chi in the concept would not be in line with God. That's a concept that involves spiritual principles that oppose God. If you do a search on chi, you will see it makes an assumption about what the energy is that's being impacted. It's in opposition to what God says He is and we are.
Now there are uses of energy in the world that are based on Science and the laws of God. For example, electricity is a form of energy. If we harness it by utilizing the laws that God made around electricity, we can use it in healing so long as we don't mix ungodly principles with it. For example, before I came to Christ I tried a chi gong machine. It was an electricity run machine based on energy theories related to chi gong. I have repented of that and would not use it again.
I believe that a reasonable rule of thumb is to avoid anything with spiritual roots that oppose the truth of the bible, and if something is harnessing God's laws of science without opposing any principle of God - it's probably ok.
There are some excellent books out there on how to identify occultic practices. Personally I avoid a lot of things that are "iffy". I would rather be doing what pleases God, and not opening doors to the devil to give him a right to do me harm.
Most of all, the most important thing is to seek God, and trust Him as our healer. He will take care of us! I hope this helps! If you have any specific practices you would like to address, let me know and I'll let you know if I've researched that one or have any info on it.
#520, I WILL get a reply sent to you one of these times! Last night I had spent better than 15 minutes typing a message when just as I hit post one of my little twins pushed the off button on my computer! I screamed in dismay, but alas it was gone! I had started on Saturday night too that one of them shut it down on Sunday (in that case I came in the room and wasn't sure which of the two was the culprit.) I have many, many things on today's agenda (voting is one!) but I will get back with you as I very enjoyed your posts. :) Caitlin Lorraine
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