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Re: If only it were so, DQ
Forum: Politics Debate Forum  
  • Edited   Hidden Username   6y  3,046  C
    • Re: What effects will it really have   turiya   6y  3,024
      • you make a point turiya but the old saying go...   #27054   6y  2,944
        • the old saying goes "when in rome..........   turiya   6y  2,962
          • If only it were so, Turiya   dquixote1217   6y  2,975
            • Re: If only it were so, DQ   turiya   6y  2,879  
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              turiya
              Date: 4/22/2008 6:11:12 AM   ( 6y ago )   Hits:   2879

              Turiya, you sentiments are laudable and they sing to the days of peace, love, brother and sisterhood and spiritual awakening, but that is a make believe world to aspire to live in, but a far cry from the one that we are living in and will have to deal with for the forseeable future.

              Maybe someday we can all sit down together with mutual respect and hold hands and sing Kumbaya, but not this day and not this age. In today's real world when you have groups of people who are taught that it is their rights to kill the infidels and rule the world, other groups who believe all outside their chosen few are less than humans - mere cattle who do not deserve to live and can be lied to at will, power hungry dictators, and a global shadow elite that spans generations who seeks to control everything we think, say and do . . . . man, it just gets really hard to put much faith in what should be when you see what really is.

              On the one hand. our country is now a far, far cry from the land of liberty and freedom envisioned by our forefathers. Yet on the other, throughout history the loss of a strong nationalism has been a sure sign of the end of that civilization.

              And so, the real hope for our future in the short term is a combination of both America Love it or Leave It AND America, Change it of Lose it.

              DQ

              Yes, DQ, I am in agreement with you. Just look at what the lack of a strong nationalism did to the Native American Indians. It made it easy for them to be nearly exterminated by white people. Those ‘real’ nations of peoples… the ‘real’ Americans know all too well the dictates of what you preach… “America, love it, or leave it” and “Changing it…” well, I don’t think that was their way, either… and so, yeah, they did lose it… to those that had forefathers with visions of ‘liberty’ and ‘freedom’ fairies dancing in their heads… with sentiments singing spiritualistic-like phrases like ‘inalienable rights’ and “in God we Trust”… I think I remember reading it somewhere… didn’t they hold hands and sing Kumbaya with each other when they created this country… and then, again before their ancestors slaughtered countless Native American Indians. I thought that is where that all came from…. Oh well, could be that's my bad.

              The truth of the matter is:
              At the periphery, your ‘good citizen joe’ is a Napoleon, a Hitler, a Stalin, a Ghengis Chan, and all the politicians, and all the other mad people of the world… at the periphery we are a miniature of all that. Each of us have the whole history of aggression and violence, oppression, slavery. At the periphery, remember, each of us is the history that belongs to this world. Each one of us holds that human heritage with us.

              You are just as much a slave to your society as the others you are pointing your finger at have been slaves to their society. They are just as miserable as you are. Just look at tomi444. His reaction to the implication that he may also be somewhat unconscious. See the hatred, the violence the anger, the desire for revenge is there inside also… it is there just waiting for someone to come along and scratch his skin … just looking and waiting for ways so all that crap can jump out and be expressed… you, too, are also sitting on your own volcano.
              It is easier to see it in others than it can be seen in oneself. Because your two eyes are continuously pointing outwardly.

              As long as humanity has lived, it has lived in millions of wrong ways. Wandered and missed, committed countless sins and abominations, murders, wars, indignations, exploitations, oppressions, dominations, rapes… and you have been part to it… you are also responsible for it. tomi444 is also responsible for it, rokybird and myself and all the rest here and everywhere.

              If anything, most everyone needs big time therapy rather that to be mistreated further. Problem is there are aren’t enough therapists sane enough to treat such a world-wide epidemic of mentally ill people. Hey, how ‘bout everyone being there own therapist. Maybe just a daily midday nap for the masses may be just what is needed to fix the mess... – call it meditative rest period... Tantrums of violence would no doubt decrease.

              If you don’t want to be a slave, to be oppressed, to be manipulated, to be treated as an object by the society, then you will have to start by not wanting to enslave others, oppress others, to manipulate and control or want to treat another as an object, to not want to kill the other. Starting with yourself and then it will be easier to not have the society do these things to you.

              Rallying around nationalism may be good as it disperses this violence away from its own members to a certain degree and directs it at an altogether different group of people… from another society…in other countries (and in this one). Societies want their people to be juiced in such ways. It diverts the attention of the problems somewhere else. Look at what 9/11 had done so successfully.

              But if society's members are not involved in a spirited nationalism… if there is no nationalist movement to bind people together, to blind people together, this violence would again be directed back at its own members… because the unconscious revenge seeks expression. It is a natural endpoint for all oppressed and repressed energies to culminate to. And the leaders and the vested interests of society do not want it members looking at them will eyes that clearly see the root causes.

              What you are calling the ‘real’ world, for me it is what I call the ‘unreal’ world… it is just a bad dream  and with each passing day is becoming more and more a ‘real’ living nightmare.

              “…the only hope for our future …”
              Another well-conditioned masochist, I see… do you really want this crap to continue?
              ‘Hope’ is another one of those empty, hollow, and over used words… ‘hope’ in this context is used to mean ‘to postpone’… and to not really do anything at all, so the nightmare can continue… to go on missing, committing countless sins, murders, wars, indignations, exploitations, oppressions, dominations, rapes… and you will continue to support it… and to be part of it.

              It is difficult to be free of the society. It is very difficult to break away from the crowd, to break away from the fictions of “we” and “our ” … identities that the individual loses himself in… which helps to keep one from encountering oneself face to face... one can continue with the unreal-ness of this 'real' nightmare if one feels he is not alone, he can lose himself easier in a crowd. That is what the 'we' is for. It is difficult to peel away the centuries old, rotten layers of conditioned habits… to walk alone on a path no one else has walked before… without a road map to lead you on.

              To even consider such an undertaking for even an atomic second sends one reeling and grasping for some sort of rock for stability. To be anchored in the knowledge that you cling to and claim to be your own.
              Because mind is not your own. It is a social product. Mind carries all the germs of the past. All the diseases of the past. All the ugliness of the past. Because mind belongs to the collective.
              It is what is known. it keeps one seemingly safe, secure and quite dead… alive in a kind of walking dead society. Always ready to follow the well-trodden path. That is why history repeats itself.

              To take on that responsibility that is involved with being aware is too much of a task to take on. Because one would have  to pass through seeing that this ugliness is inside himself. And it is too painful to look at it. Easier to continue vomiting the misunderstanding on the fellow next to you rather than spend a small atomic moment to look at yourself. To me, that is a future I don’t care to help support… to help create and maintain it for another tomorrow.

              And so, DQ, to jump out of the loop there are two problems that have to be resolved in order to become free from the effects of the society.
              The first comes from the society. It is to drop all that ideas that you have accumulated about yourself. All the images of yourself that have been given to you by society.
              The society wants to dominate. The privileged classes want to dominate, to oppress, to exploit. They would like you to remain completely unaware of yourself. This is the first difficulty. And one has to be born in a society.
              The parents are a part of the society. The teachers are part of the society. The priests are part of the society. The society is everywhere all around you. It seems really impossible. How to escape? How to find a door back to nature? You are enclosed from everywhere…

              Second difficulty comes from your own self. Because you would also like to oppress, to dominate. You would also like to possess, to be powerful.
              It involves dropping the ego. This is even deeper difficulty than the first. You can avoid society, but how to avoid your own ego?
              It is not so easy thing to do. One will become quite afraid. Because one will not know who he is. And one may even go mad in the process.

              But one is already mad. Look at tomi. His response shows his madness. His eyes red with rage … his mind have already painted me as the enemy. He does not know me. But to protect his precious treasure… his precious ego… he is ready to kill me for the mere suggestion that he may be a bit unconscious. And the rest here are the same.

              Peace to you, DQ

               
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          • Re: What effects will it really have   #27054   6y  2,910
      • Edited   #28187   6y  2,802
    • Re: What effects will it really have   2Sirius   6y  2,876




 
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