I’m not sure on why the hostility on the response. I simply had an issue with is his claim about the Dr. Christopher’s products which were and still are untrue. In fact, YOU HAVE YET TO PROVE ME WRONG ON ANY OF THE POINTS I MADE”. Although you provided much insight, opinion, and fact about certain methods, you did not disprove a single item I claimed. Keep in mind with post (which will be my last) I am sticking too, and will again mention all the details I point out today are factual, and verifiable. If you don’t believe me I invite you to take a tour of the building, or call the company for yourself. I invite you to see what I have seen for myself. In that case, we wouldn’t have the drastically different views on the same company which we currently have.
On the site it says “Attack the message, not the messenger” which is all I felt I did. I am now simply responding again with nothing but more facts to dispute the claims again made in the response. However, I think it’s incredibly unfair to hold the threat of “deleting my next post from the forum” when in my last post I did not include anything vulgar, rude, or obscene, over my head simply because you disagree with me, as it comes off as very one sided. I want no part in a forum with a bias where I, unlike others am apparently not entitled to my freedom of speech. So, when this threat is quickly deleted after I post it… I’ll know exactly why.
I will now respond to defend myself (as I felt I was, and my knowledge was personally attacked) and the claims I made with more facts to explain what I learned while on the company tour.
you wrote... Firstly, I want to note that it's quite unusual for a poster that has never posted on Curezone before, to go to a thread that's over 2 years old to make their first post. --- This is aside the point, and completely irrelevant to the claims I was disputing. I have no idea why you would “want to note” this detail other than to try and label me personally as “quite unusual”.
>>>I had an opportunity to tour the building myself in person 2 years ago, with the managers and owners of the company, along with David Christopher.<<< ...as do all high level students, faculty and associates of the School of Natural Healing. ----again, this fact is completely irrelevant to the claims I was disputing. I again do not understand why this was brought up other than to portray my point that I personally took a tour of the building as something to the level of “yeah, so what” --- It doesn’t matter if I took the tour while doing the hokey pokey, if I am a GMP representative or if I am a deep sea diver by trade, it doesn’t matter if I took the tour by myself or along with 100 other people, the fact is, and my point is, I visited the building in person, myself, therefore I have proof, and fact to back up my disputes on the untrue claims made here.
Furthermore, if you must know, No, I do not have financial or family ties to the school. I am just a passionate Dr. Christopher student and fan who researches things thoroughly, who is sticking up for a company that was left defenseless on a forum.
Now, on to your response which I will again counter with factual, verifiable proof.
…The companies that create Certificates of Analysis (and do the testing and fill in the blanks on the forms they created) are separate from the companies providing the herbs to be tested. That's a good thing. The problem is that 90-95% of the herbs sold in the US are imported from 3rd world countries. If I'm a "C of A company" and I want to make a profit selling my certificates & analyses, I have to provide an analysis that herbal companies will want...or I'll go broke. Since 90-95% of the herbs imported into this country ARE a lower quality & potency than (properly grown) certified organic herbs from the US...well then, a company creating C of A's better make sure their forms & analyses don't make the 90-95% look bad. It's not what's on the C of A, it's what's NOT on the C of A...and that's a LOT of integral information…
----You are correct on the C of a’s to a certain extent. Yes, some of their herbs were imported from overseas and other countries as some herbs are not indigenous or grown commonly here. Some even vary greatly in constituents and quality (Russian comfrey vs the comfrey from the usa) We were shown this and told this, it wasn’t hidden or concealed. However many herbs were also shipped from within the lower 48 states. In some cases, AGAINST what you claim as impossible, herbs were even wild crafted (truly wild crafted matching your own written description) from the hills or valleys in neighboring states or from across the usa, and brought in directly from the wild crafter or the network of wildcrafters. However, also very important that you seem to discard with your obsession with only organics, is the focus on the potency of the herb. You are correct in saying that the C of A’s only provide so much info. Not every disease on earth is tested, as we both know that would be impossible. You are correct in that. But, C of A’s DO NOT verify potency. Further analysis is needed to verify or compare the amounts of naturally occurring chemicals found in plants (I’m not talking about chemicals from pesticides) The C of A’s are only 1 part of assuring that you have a good quality herb. In fact, they even mentioned they have had cases where a batch of Certified Organic herbs was tested and was actually “weaker” in constituents than an identical species of wildcrafted or even conventional herbs! Just because it’s organic, doesn’t mean it’s potent. You need further testing to insure you have the best of the best. We were shown this. Dr. Christopher believed in using the highest quality herbs he could find you’re correct… in a lot of cases these were the herbs he picked himself. The company still knows this, and follows the same thought process. You can’t always use the fact that it’s organic or not organic to label an herb as “good or bad” or to guarantee it potency, which in turn plays a major part in its effectiveness. Anyone who tests for more than just purity knows this.
Still on the topic of C of A’s, and response to your point on the C of A companies going broke, or losing money if they don’t provide “c of a’s the companies want”. Again, you may be correct, but you are obviously unaware of the policies of this company. The C of A’s provided by their sources or independent labs are taken ONLY AT FACE VALUE. The company retests everything, twice more in fact, to verify or prove the information on the c of a to be accurate or inaccurate. So, if a independent lab provides false c of a information, it would be caught in testing and questioned, which of course would bring the source of herb or the lab itself into question. Here’s the bottom line, I understand Dr. Shultz’s products are formulated with very carefully selected herbs which is great. What I ask you to understand is that other companies do the same thing. You’re not the only person to think like this. Dr. Christopher was incredible and drilled into the fact that you must use quality herbs. I just ask that you understand that there are more people like you, that are passionate like you, that own companies that uphold these standards like you, and it’s a good thing. You don’t need to badmouth a company with a “holier than thou” approach when you don’t know their policies and especially when the two companies seem to be so similar! I think that is the bottom line of where this argument is about.
you wrote...The reasons you give are reasons that Dr. Christopher would have gone to jail for, before allowing his products to be degraded in these ways. Anyone that cares about the health & healing virtues of herbal remedies KNOWS not to give a hooters-hoot about complying with "FDA regulations" or regulation of any state in the union. ---- This was funny; I actually laughed when I read this part. I just want to make sure I understood you correctly. So what your saying is: if I truly care about the herbs, I should NOT COMPLY with the governing laws of this country or any state in the union and that I should willfully, and knowingly ignore them simply because I do not like them?... is that right? ---- Wow, in that case, as of this very moment (Since I do care about herbs) I am going to stop obeying the speed limit as well on the grounds that I don’t like it, nor do I agree with it because it’s mandated by what I know to be a corrupt organization. I will let the officer(s) know I’m simply taking your advice… I’m sure they’ll understand. For your own personal and financial sake I hope you are not involved in Dr. Shulze’s company, or any company that purposely ignores the rulings and guidelines of the FDA…. Or I hope your pockets are very deep… as you will need them to be when the FDA catching up to you one day. You’re passionate, and that’s okay, IN FACT, I APPLAUD IT, but you need to use it wisely. Laws are still laws and still must be obeyed. You and I both know the FDA is crooked. I personally disagree with much of what they say and do. But, until the laws are changed, I am still obligated as a citizen of this country to obey them. We don’t ignore them, we change them. In this, we should work together, not against each other.
>>>Only the Christopher family (David Christopher) who owns the rights to these formulations can instruct them to do so. I also found out the only reason product ingredients have been changed (or updated) is due to FDA regulations, prop 65 compliance (regulation from the state of California) or an herb becoming endangered. <<<
The "endangered" excuse is totally lame, as any herb that is endangered in the wild can still be used if it's obtained from a source that doesn't take herbs from their natural setting. I have no problem at all finding endagered herbs from organic/cultivated sources. And neither would they IF they wanted to spend the extra money (and if they had even a small percentage of Dr Christopher's integrity).
----I just want to make sure that you understand that with this comment your now calling Dr. Christopher’s, Mountain Rose Herbs, and other high end herbal companies “lame” for their concern about a the continued existence of a plant species. It’s not an excuse, its concern. Did you consider that maybe their sources for these said plants that are endangered are truly wild harvested like in your description… and not “spoon fed” by a farmer in a field? If so, are their actions still not justified?
>>>Furthermore, although some formulations have changed due to these laws, they are very similar, in most cases, only a single herb has been withdrawn, or added. <<<
you wrote... "Only a single herb", eh? LIke Comfrey being taken out of BF&C (for restoring bone, flesh, & cartilage)...when Comfrey contains allantoin (a cell regenerator). 'Tis pretty tough to restore & regenerate tissue when the Comfrey that does the regenerating is gone. Either you know very little about herbs and their actions, or methinks you should be ashamed of yourself for justifying a company (or person) changing Dr. Chrstopher's herbal formula and selling them without FULL disclosure.
This part was flat out hilarious. -----I had tears running down my face at this point. You clearly have not studied the constituents of certain plants, worked in, or been through labs where this is done, or have any chemistry in your background, and that’s okay if not, you just need to know your facts before you make statements such as the ones above mocking me, and questioning my personal “herbal knowledge” as I will now fill you in on these again verifiable facts:
First off, “like comfrey eh” yes, like comfrey. Comfrey is a single herb just like I mentioned previously (“in most cases only a single herb has been withdrawn or added”) I guess first off, I should thank you for helping me drive in my point of the formulations being altered as little as possible, but yes, you are absolutely right on your statement. It would be very hard to “restore & regenerate tissue when comfrey containing “allantoin” is taken out…. UNLESS THE FORMULA WAS REFORMULATED WITH LUNGWORT WHICH ALSO CONTAINS “ALLANTOIN” and Aloe Vera which Dr. Christopher’s himself included on his short list of “cell proliferant” herbs which this formula has been (internal version only, external versions left unchanged). As you apparently do not know, “allantoin” isn’t in a single herb, it has multiple sources. Again, all I’m asking is that you do your homework and research before you mock me, question a company’s integrity, a man’s integrity, or my personal “herbal knowledge”. ----If it makes you feel any better though, I personally believe that the benefits of comfrey still outweigh the benefits of the two replacements, but as I have already mentioned… rules are rules, and must be obeyed.
you wrote... Btw, Comfrey root is NOT illegal or banned. It's just those that choose to use it take the risk of being dragged into court over it. Records of that happening to the Christopher label can easily be found on the net...as can be the fact they chose to kowtow and remove the healing Comfrey root rather than fight for the truth. For that reason alone, I would never give a penny to the Christopher label. They have the money and resources to fight the good fight and win, but instead they kowtowed...leaving the smaller producers with more integrity to 'hang out to dry'.
----The internet doesn’t always contain court cases, or lawsuits to various companies who HAVE been sued for their product(s) containing comfrey that were labeled a “supplement” that did fight, and lost. The net is good, but isn’t as thorough and cases like this require further research. I suggest doing more research again before questioning a company’s integrity or insinuating them as “quitters” leaving “the smaller producers with more integrity to hang out to dry”. Again, know your facts before you name call.
you wrote…..Drying BARNS...NOT KILNS and/or OVENS. Because just like Dr. Christopher taught, Dr. Schulze knows that the proper way to dry herbs is at heat under 100 degrees in very well ventilated buildings (or in the shade). 'Got any C of A's with integral information such as that? :::smirk:::
-----To my knowledge they don’t have one with that info on it… BUT NEITHER DO YOU. C of a’s portray only certain information. They don’t contain details such as if the herb was dried in a drying barn personally paid for by Dr. Shultz. Or maybe, yours do and I’m wrong. By all means if so, prove me wrong. Please upload proof that you do in fact have this information or other information that you are openly mocking the Christopher’s company for not having. Perhaps yours will also contain such information as whether or not the manager at the time had his morning bowel movement, or if he wore his favorite shirt that day. As the ones I saw at the Christophers building didn’t contain that information either. I’m begging you, prove me wrong. (I’ll leave off the :::smirk:::)
>>>Basically, the tour was a real eye opener to the level of quality and care that this company produces these products with, which is well above the industry standard... and to have it spat on, without proof, or knowledge just sell your own products… isn’t right. I invite any or all of you to do as I have done, and do the research for yourself. <<<
you wrote...The industry standard SUCKS - being at the top of the suck-pile doesn't impress me. ----My post was to clarify the wrong accusations with verifiable facts… not to impress you. Thanks for pointing out that I didn’t achieve something I never meant to achieve. However, while we’re talking about this, what pile exactly should the Christopher’s products strive to be on?
you wrote.... Dr. Schulze does not NEED to criticize anyone in order to sell his products or prove their quality, and his facilities & production methods are PRISTINE under ANY microscope! ---- But he did. I never said Dr. Schulze ’s products weren’t good, pristine, or of high quality… not once! He said that about Dr. Christopher’s products, not the other way around. Also, I respect Dr. Schulze and his passion and mission for good and I’m sure he doesn’t have to “criticize anyone in order to sell his products”. But the fact remains that he did. I read on this very site an interview in which Dr. Schulze participated in where the very first question was something to the likes of “why do you think people are having such bad results with Dr. Christopher’s products”. --- is it just me that takes that as criticism or someone talking bad about another company? It seems like a bias question as well to start with which makes me question who the interviewer was. Bottom line is this, I don’t know if you or Dr. Shulze, or even if both of you had a bad experience with the product, or the company itself for this passion to discredit them, and myself for loving their products, but I know this much. ---- If Dr. Christopher was still alive, he would NEVER under any condition participate in any interview to talk negatively about another company or their products. I know this, you know this, Dr. Schulze knows this, and anyone who knew Dr. Christopher personally, or even heard him lecture knows this… don’t you dare try to dispute that.
you wrote... I understand how you've been misled, and I have no problem at all with people questioning and learning. But to flat-out lie about myself, husband and Dr. Schulze in order to try to support your obvious ignorance
----Please point out where I mentioned anyone OTHER than a comment made by Dr. Schulze. You or your husband were not mentioned (unless Dr. Shulze is your husband which would explain your defensive response) Even then, I did not lie. It was all fact. Furthermore, it was his comments I was clarifying.
As far as me being misled... explain to me on what ground your coming from. Prove me wrong, which will also prove I’ve been misled. You’ve yet to do this a single time thus far. This isn’t hype, or heresy, I have seen all this with my own eyes, and seen policies with my own eyes. Perhaps you should sign up for a tour and which would verify everything I’ve said. It’s hard to mislead someone with facts when you’re them, and proving it to them, and others.
Lastly, I will never be back on this site as defending a company from people who refuse to believe or verify facts for themselves is futile and not worth my time. The response I got back after stating nothing but truth was in my opinion very personal, venomous and against the “rules” of this forum in spite my post being nothing but truth, and not meant to attack anything but the message from a person, not the messenger himself. I know this post will be deleted and only seen here for a short time, not because it was rude, vulgar, or against “rules” but because it’s the truth, and some people can’t accept the truth, or the fact that we disagree, and it’s a shame. It’s a shame because the readers of this post will never see the truth, and will always have the impression that I could not counter with facts, and will be lead believe the false claims made were actually the truth.