Won’t your lips continue to peel after the lip reduction? It doesn’t treat the source of the problem.   [End]
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I don’t know if it will help you or not but I can only give you my own experience. I went to a dermatologist a long time ago and the first thing she did was give me the strongest steroid cream (clobetasol) and herpes medication. She said the pills for herpes was just in case it was herpes, which like some funny person posted a while ago, I thought was kind of stupid, but the medication she gave me was only like 2 weeks, not 6 months. I had no improvement after the 2 weeks of the herpes medication so she just told me to keep using the cream which was also useless. Long story short, no d ...
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I think Daniel Miller is the only person here that cured their lips with the constant moisture method. Tons of other people have tried it, including myself, that had no results. There’s probably other factors that contributed to Daniel Miller’s healing in addition to constant moisture such as his change in environment (he moved to California), his use of some cream (I don’t remember what it was called, I think it was a steroid cream), getting lots of sunshine and exercise, healthy diet, among other things including my lip bacteria theory. I don’t think constant moisture is enough to cur ...
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Hahaha funny post. Actually that is what doctors do when they take a culture of your lips. My doctor did the same thing years ago. He rubbed a qtip on my lips and then sent it to the lab. My lips were very dry, but they didn’t bleed. My culture results just showed normal lip bacteria.   [End]
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That was like the same treatment dermatologists gave me 3 years ago. Steroid cream after steroid cream. I used the strongest one, Clobetasol for 2 months with no results. Then I had a lip biopsy that explained nothing, and afterwards they wanted to inject steroids into my lips. I was like screw that and never went back. It seems to be working for you though. Steroid creams never helped my lips. Hopefully it works for you. I also tried probiotics in the past with no results.   [End]
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Someone else here said they took it for 1 week and the skin stopped peeling, but it wasn’t cured because there was no natural lines on the lips yet. That’s kind of how I felt during the first week. After like 3 days, the skin seemed like it stopped peeling and stayed almost the same for the next couple of days, which was a noticeable improvement. I thought it stopped peeling, but eventually the outer layer started peeling again. I took it for 2 weeks so far. The skin still peels a little each day like before but the skin growing back seems a little slower, maybe. Like you said, I probab ...
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I haven’t posted my results since they are not very conclusive yet (I’m guessing that’s the case for most people that tried it here). Here’s my results so far. I bought the NOW brand 1300 mg EPO (since it’s cheaper than the other one- don’t have to pay shipping and tax). I only took it for 12 days so far. I take 4 a day, which is 5200 mg a day. During the first week, I noticed the skin on my lips peeled less/took longer to peel. This was not a placebo effect since I’ve tried lots of other supplements before with no effects. It really did seem better during the first week, but the ski ...
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Oh,I just remembered I also tried another calendula product before- Hyland’s Calendula ointment or something. There was a post here years ago where someone had a lot of improvement using it and there was a lot of discussion about it. It didn’t work for me though. It has petrolatum and all it did was make my lips very white and thick. It moisturizes but anything with petrolatum turns my lips all white, and the growing skin soaks it up and becomes all thick, white, and smelly. Aquaphor does this too. Apparently ointments don’t work for my lips. Creams work better for me but it’s not as m ...
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Glad it’s working for you. I tried Boiron Calendula Cream on my lips before and it didn’t help. I think I used it like twice a day for a couple of weeks back then. I don’t remember why I stopped using it but my lips didn’t improve from using it.   [End]
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Sounds interesting. I focused on bacteria specifically on the lips, but oral bacteria could help. Keep us updated please. Any convenient method better than having to find people to kiss would be really beneficial and would help a lot more people on here.   [End]
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The only method I can think of is by transferring good lip bacteria from someone without EC onto someone with EC, via kissing, or swabbing lips and transferring. Probably the most effective through kissing. Everyone starts off with good bacteria on their lips, but after losing it, it doesn’t seem to come back on its own. The reason I think the moisturize method didn’t work for anyone else other than Daniel Miller is because he had good bacteria on his lips (from kissing) and then the moisturize method allowed the good bacteria to grow and multiply. He had no results from the ”keep it dr ...
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Daniel Miller said he went on dates a lot and kissed people even when he had EC. He seems to have gotten cured from the moisturize method. Getting good bacteria on your lips and then moisturizing will grow the good bacteria and cure the lips.. according to my theory.. :/   [End]
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Two years ago I posted a story I learned in my Microbiology class about a man (a real person) that always had an infection in his left ear, but not in his right ear. Doctors kept giving him antibiotics and medication but nothing worked. One day, he magically cured his left ear by putting some ear wax from his right ear into his left ear. How did this cure his left ear? Because his right ear had good bacteria that cured the left ear. I had a good theory a long time ago but I forgot about it since I didn’t have a way of testing it, but I suddenly remembered it today and I really think it ...
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Hi. I have some questions. I just ordered the product on amazon but won’t receive it until Thursday. dillan94 said it prevents buildup. If it prevents buildup, then what happens if you leave it on 24/7? Why would you have to remove it and use other creams if it prevents skin buildup? Does your lips gradually look worse each day while using this? Also should I remove all the skin on my lips before using it, or is it ok to put over dead skin?   [End]
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What about cold arms? My upper arms are always cold when I’m in bed at night. Does anyone else have that? Hot chest area, cold arms.. I feel hot and cold at the same time at night. I don’t have a drooling problem since I sleep on my back.   [End]
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Hey. I was wondering does anyone else feel really hot when they sleep or lay in bed at night? I noticed this years ago, whenever I go to bed at night, I always feel very hot in the chest area (actually below the chest) and feel hot all night even when it is cool or cold in my room. I think it might be related to my EC. Some kind of drying internal heat that won’t go away. Also my tongue is always red or at least the tip of it is always red. A Chinese herbal doctor said there is a heat in me (don’t know the English translation) but after taking Chinese medicine for 3 months, it still has ...
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I think that also happened to me when I did the leave alone method. The bottom part of my bottom lip which normally didn’t peel started peeling as well but after you moisturize it again, it goes back to normal in about a week so the spreading is only temporary (at least for me). No improvements in the affected areas though.   [End]
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My EC started as constantly chapped lips in high school. I don’t know why or how but my lips were always dry every day for the entire 4 yrs I was in high school. It didn’t turn into full EC until my 2nd year in college when I was using aquaphor regularly and suddenly it started turning my lips white and my lips would always turn white when wet and kept peeling in layers. 3 years later and no improvement. I used all kinds of chapsticks, oils, and lip creams with no success. I used the strongest steroid Clobetasol on my lips for 2 months including other steroids like protopic and that nys ...
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I always knew it had something to do with the intestines but can’t figure out how to treat/cure it. I tried probiotics, colostrum, some garlic supplement that’s supposed to kill candida, healthy diet, and no meat for 3 months but still can’t cure my intestines. I still have loose stool every now and then and it’s getting worse, I keep bleeding while pooping for like 2 months now.. Also interested on what the doctors suggest for treatment.   [End]
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I’ve been using colostrum for almost 3 weeks as well with no visible results. I have only been taking 1 capsule a day though.. guess I have to increase the dosage.   [End]
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This is the 4th day I’ve been taking colostrum and I still haven’t noticed any improvement. I admit I did buy the cheapest one I found, the Now Foods one, but that was the same brand that person was using (the one who said it cured their EC). So far no improvement although I got sick (with a cold) right before starting it and I’m still a little sick.   [End]
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Thanks for posting. I read another post on this forum before where someone else said Colostrum cured their lips. I really wanted to try it since someone mentioned that it helps with the intestines and I have a lot of intestinal/loose stool problems but that thread had little activity and I wanted someone else to try it before I get it. Really great to hear it’s working for you. I think I’m going to get it and try it myself now. Which brand did you use? The other person used the powder version, is the powder or capsule version better? Thanks.   [End]
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Well nice to know it’s working for you. All it did was make my lip skin turn white and thick like Vasaline. -_- Does anyone else have that problem where every ointment just makes your lips turn white? I used that calendula ointment for a couple of weeks but it made no difference with my lips.   [End]
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I mentioned this before on this forum. I have the same thing where I have loose stool everyday. I’m very convinced that my lip problem is related to my intestines. I tried probiotics but it didn’t help. I want to do a stool test but my doctor keeps dismissing it and my food allergy tests were all negative. I really think I should do a colonoscopy but I need a different doctor.   [End]
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If I tell someone with normal lips to swab their lips with a cotton swab and then swab that on my lips, do you think that will work? Without having to kiss them?   [End]
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Do you know if Soy Milk will work? My brother is lactose intolerant so I have been drinking soy milk lately. Is it as good as regular milk?   [End]
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Hi guys. Since there are a lot of knowledgable people on this board, I wanted to ask about something to see if it explains what might be causing my EC? One year ago I went to China for vacation for 3 weeks. (I already had EC for 3+ years before going). Before going, I had loose stools every day for 1-2+ years. When I went to China, from the very first day, my stool was hard and normal and I never had any loose bowels when I was in China even though I pooped everyday (once a day) like in the U.S. Then when I came back to the U.S., my stool was still normal for about a month and after a m ...
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I think someone mentioned this before. Before I wasn’t sure if my lips were really bigger or not but now I know for sure my lips are bigger. Seriously my lips are huge now... When I do an open-mouth smile, my top lip covers most of my top teeth because my top lip is so huge and my lips look like big blobs. I thought I read someone here said it was because of Bepanthen? (which is what I am currently using) Bepanthen is good in that it does not make my lips turn as white as aquaphor/vasaline but it’s not curing my lips and it might be making my lips bigger. I want to try that Hylands Ca ...
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I was thinking of a simpler way than kissing people given our lip conditions.. I was thinking having a healthy person swab their lips and then we put that swab on our lips to transfer the bacteria. Do you think that would work?   [End]
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Sorry, in the end of my post, I said (look up fecal transport), it was a typo, I meant Fecal transplant.   [End]
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I was reading some articles for my microbio class and they were about good gut bacteria/microbes. There were experiments where they put gut microbes from a healthy rat into a rat with metabolism problems and it cured the unhealthy rat’s metabolism problem. There was also a story where there was someone that always had an ear infection on his left ear but not his right ear. Doctors kept giving him antibiotics but his left ear wouldn’t heal. Then he walked in one day and told the doctor he cured his ear by putting some ear wax from his healthy right ear into his infected left ear and that ...
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Hey ECParent. That sounds great. I never really paid attention to bepanthen on this forum but is it this on amazon ”Bayer Bepanthen Diaper(Nappy) Care Ointment”? I need something new to try before school starts in 1 and a half weeks. -.- I just had a lip biopsy which I thought I would never do but was pressured into.. and have been using a very strong steriod, clobetasol, for the last 4 weeks with no results. Also does he have buildup, like the skin turning white, and ever have to peel/remove any lip skin while using it? Thanks.   [End]
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I agree with jsl. I thought about leaving my mouth open a long time ago and left my mouth slightly open everyday for over a year. During the summer, I left my mouth open and did the moisturize method with no peeling for 3 months and had no results. Leaving your mouth open can’t cure EC in 2 days... I’m thinking he had a very small case of EC or just chapped lips.   [End]
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Yes my brother and I both have EC but no one else in our family ever had it. I was thinking it may be diet related since we live together and eat the same stuff growing up. Both of us also seem to have gluten sensitivity and possibly intestinal allergies/problems. I have been trying to avoid gluten, sugar, and other stuff but my lips haven’t gotten any better.   [End]
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I haven’t really been doing anything since I have school and have to wash the skin off my lips every week. I just came back from a new dermatologist that prescribed for me Acyclovir and Clobetasol. I don’t really know anything about them, one is a cream and the other are pills. Apparently Acyclovir is supposed to be for herpes... which I don’t have.. I will take them for 3 weeks but because of school, removing skin every week will not help in seeing progress probably :/   [End]
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I woke up today and looked in the mirror and looked in my mouth in the lip area and noticed a small mole that appeared! It is inside my mouth past the inner lip area of the lower lip a little farther inside. Im scared now because I remember a long time ago when i went to see a dentist, the dentist saw my chapped lips and randomly told me something about being careful because when a mole goes in my mouth, i will have skin cancer. I never understood why that dentist said that since i dont have any moles on or near my lips or mouth. Now i am really scared i have skin cancer because this mo ...
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I thought the sun would help too. I exposed my lips to the sun like 1-2 hours a day for over a month, but didn’t seem to help though I wasn’t in the sun all day everyday. Also I did the moisturize method for almost 3 months with little to no results. School starts in 1 week. I’m f***ed. Another failed summer. -.-   [End]
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I was thinking of getting this: http://www.amazon.com/Kyolic-ExtractTM-Digestion-Formula102-Vegetarian/dp/B00028LPHC/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1374525577&sr=8-5&keywords=candida It is not a drug, or should I just take probiotics?   [End]
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Hey longterm, I decided I want to get some supplement to improve my intestines. Should I get something to treat candida (don’t know if I have it) or should I just get probiotics?   [End]
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Thanks. Also do you guys know a good way of putting on aquaphor? My lips feel extremely sensitive now, hurts to even touch it with aquaphor. I use a q-tip with aquaphor but feel like it is peeling the skin when I try to rub the aquaphor off the q-tip unto the lip. Also Healing, did you ever use saline solution, if not what did you use?   [End]
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Hi. I started the moisturize method recently and have an important question. So I was putting aquaphor on my lips every night and sometimes during the day. Sometimes I noticed the skin looks kind of wet and turning white and don’t know whether to put aquaphor on it or not (during the day). I don’t want to put aquaphor and it turns more white and gets worse. So my question is is it possible to overmoisturize the lip skin and make it worse? But I realized people said to keep the lips moisturized 24/7 so should I just keep packing on aquaphor even if it makes it build up faster?   [End]
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This is very similar to me. My brother and I also have EC but his is not as bad as mine and he also has wheat allergies, possibly celiac’s disease. I went to a famous Chinese doctor in China in January and he said it was food allergies and intestinal problems causing EC on my lips. He gave me lots of medicine, stuff to put on my lips, diet plan, and other stuff but it didn’t work. I am currently doing the moisturize method (I just finished a semester of school and had to peel the skin off every week) and people here were talking about Imuran and someone said something about it being for ...
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Hi. I recently started the moisturize method, using aquaphor on my lips every night. The skin on my lips became very white and thick. The skin on my bottom lip keeps sliding down whenever I eat or drink from a straw. It’s the skin in the middle and to the right of the bottom lip moves down and exposes the raw skin in the inner lip region. It moved down to almost uncover half of the bottom lip in the inner lip part. I keep pushing it back up but it just goes back down whenever I drink from a straw or eat. It’s annoying because when I eat, the inner lip parts are exposed so my lips keep ...
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I think me, Healing, and some other people used it before, but we used it when we were still peeling our lips. It seems to help but when we stopped using it, the peeling EC would come back. I only tried it 2 times (for 2 weeks first time and 1 month the 2nd time) and got same results both times.   [End]
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I tried to add my information but it doesn’t work. I don’t know how to use it :(. Whenever I type something and go to the next line, what I typed just disappears.   [End]
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I don’t think drinking without a straw will help. I had EC for 2 years now and never drank with a straw until half a year ago. Drinking with a straw is definitely better for my top lip. When I drink without a straw, it makes the top lip skin wet and peel off faster and the water touching my lips makes it white and peel.   [End]
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Hi. I was just waiting for summer break to do the moisturize method but had an appointment since it was my first time with my new healthcare. So I went to a doctor today and she told me to try lac-hydrin 12% lotion on my lips. She also said use vaseline and take multivitamins everyday. What’s weird is when I was describing my condition, she was looking on the computer and said ”I think you have exfoliative cheilitis” and showed me some pictures. I was surprised since no doctor ever said that, but she didn’t know anything about it, she was just searching around the internet. Anyway, doe ...
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It does have skin thinning in side effects.   [End]
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I used to think the EC on my lips were the worst thing ever and my life sucked because of it, then someone here posted some video a long time ago about some guy that was like half tree or something and I was like dang, at least I don’t have that.   [End]
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OP only stated that he did blood tests but I thought you need to do an endoscopy to confirm it is celiac’s. My brother did a blood test a long time ago and had some high IgA (i think it was A) and the doctors kept telling him to do the endoscopy so he did it and they said his intestines looked normal and there was nothing wrong. Still don’t know whether he even has celiac’s or not, maybe he didn’t eat enough gluten before the endoscopy. I never got tested but I haven’t eaten any gluten (I started a diet 3 months ago, haven’t eaten gluten, eggs, beef, seafood, processed food, and tons of ot ...
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Cool that you’re almost healed healing2021. That Nystatin and Triamcinolone Acetonide ointment was literally one of the first things my dermatologist gave me when I went there like a 2 years ago. It didn’t work for me though. Seemed like it was working at first but then it started making my lips really white and wet and I couldn’t use it anymore. Of course I had not done the moisturize+no peeling method at that time so you will probably have a better response to it since your lips are almost healed. (Random: I ate watermelon one time with that nystatin stuff on my lips and that combination ...
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Do you know if they can find yeast from doing a culture? I never had a lip biopsy but I had a culture on my lips and everything was normal.   [End]
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Around 2 months ago I was taking Medrol (methylprednisolone) is that kind of the same thing? I took it for like a month, like 24 mg a day. It kind of seemed like my lips were getting better (but still not healed) After I stopped using it, after a week or 2, my lips just went back to the way it has always been. Though I have to say that I was taking it when I had school so I had to peel the skin off my lips every week so that probably made my lips worse.. can’t really say if the medrol would if worked if I left my lips alone, it seems like another one of those things that help temporarily, ...
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Interesting. Hope it works for you. Where did he insert the needles?   [End]
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I tried acupuncture during my summer break. I went to someone who was a acupuncturist, chiropractor, and also used to be a doctor in a chinese hospital. Underwent some seriously painful sessions for 5 weeks but it didn’t improve my lips. After a couple of weeks of no results he admitted he couldn’t heal me because he didn’t know what was wrong and told me that only a doctor who has successfully cured this lip condition before could help. He told me to post pictures of my lips online to look for a doctor who has treated this condition before but I’m pretty sure I can’t find anyone.   [End]
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Hi. I think the consensus on this forum is that EC is not contagious but I personally don’t know if it is 100% true (for me anyway). I think I mentioned this before both my brother and I have EC but I have had peeling lips for years which eventually turned it EC and my brother never had any lip problems. Then one summer he just suddenly developed EC and I always thought he got it from me. I remember I accidentally drank from his cup a couple of times and I always feel guilty that I gave EC to my brother cause he never had lip problems before. But I still don’t know for a fact whether it is ...
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Hey jsl, did you already try the betagel/betamethasone or whatever yet? I thought stepbystep said he used betagel to heal his lips first then used elovera.   [End]
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Tell Jsl’s family friends who are going to india to buy some for you too and you can pay them to ship it to you. :0   [End]
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I thought you can’t buy it online. Isn’t it a prescription drug?   [End]
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Maybe things are cheaper in India. I remember my brother needed to buy a textbook once and it cost over $100 dollar on amazon but found it some indian version of the book online (was english) for like $10 shipped from someone in India.   [End]
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Has anyone found the betagel product online or one similar somewhere I can buy it from USA?   [End]
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From my experience, chinese herbal medicine did not work. I guess it depends on the kind of medicine but most chinese doctors I went to give the herbal medicine stuff that doesn’t work for me. I already took like 6+ months of chinese herbal medicine from many different chinese doctors and I also went to some other chinese pill doctor that gave me a week of pills that didn’t work. The medicine is supposed to help with internal stuff like improving organs like liver, kidneys, etc. or something but none of that has helped my lips :/   [End]
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I have a similar question as james, not the old woman part, but the part about what to put on my lips when school starts. School starts for me soon and I have to go and if my lips don’t heal by then I need something I can put on my lips that make it look normal. I don’t care if it is bad for my lips because if I don’t put anything, I have to keep peeling the skin off anyway which is unhealthy but I have no choice. Does anyone know anything I can do or put on my lips to make it look normal? I don’t care if it is healthy or not.. need to make my lips look as normal as possible until ne ...
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My brother who also has EC got tested for that recently and he also had overly high levels of that Ig_ stuff and thinks it is Celiac Disease. The doctors want to do an upper endoscopy on him but I don’t know if he will do it or not. I didn’t get blood tested for that but I think maybe I have it too, maybe this is related to EC? I think I will go get tested for that soon too.   [End]
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Hey healing2021, I also stopped the leave alone method a little over a week ago. I peeled off all the crusts so I could go get a lip biopsy and I tried protopic for a week and it did not work. The skin on my lips still grew back all bad and lumpy and wet and stuff. I know you talked about that other thing to use with protopic but I did not have that and I also canceled my lip biopsy because it costs $1100.. I have stopped the protopic now. Now I am doing treatment with a Chinese doctor/acupuncturist/chiropractor guy that says he can heal my lips in 3-5 sessions. Not really sure what he ...
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Hi. I don’t know if anyone talked about this here, but before I have thought it had something to do with blood circulation. I am on the computer a lot so my hands and feet are cold often but mostly my feet. Does anyone else here have cold hands or feet sometimes or have blood circulation problems? Also has anyone ever tried acupuncture?   [End]
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If only it were that easy. Cure EC in 1 day lol... -.-   [End]
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Worst part is having to go to school with EC. Constantly being stared at by others, always self-conscious and no confidence. Can’t interact with anyone, I literally have no friends at all, not even a semi-friend, 0 friends for 8 years. Always looking for ways to avoid people. Too many group work involving social situations. First thing people judge and look at is your face and they see my ugly peeling lips. I don’t want to go to school but I have to.. and it is ruining my grades as well. EC adding tons of unnecessary stress as I am taking 4 upper-division science classes per semester wi ...
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Oh.. someone said that on yahoo answers.. -.- http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AoHSFFJEMxkRCF_6xki2.yIazKIX;_ylv=3?qid=20120720124229AAkd40I They said it will look normal again but the tissue doesn’t regrow?   [End]
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I was going to get a lip biopsy but I have suddenly become hesitant. I always thought the piece of lip they cut off would grow back, don’t know why I thought that but apparently it does not grow back.. -.- Now I don’t really want to do it anymore if it will not figure out what’s wrong with my lips..   [End]
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Well if my lips still have not healed by the time school starts, unfortunately, I think I will abandon all progress and go back to peeling the skin every week and using vasaline or something. Some people might suck it up and go to school with bad looking lips but I just don’t have that confidence.. I just can’t handle being in school with really bad looking lips especially since I have 4 lab classes a week that involve close-up groupwork. -.- I think I am screwed until next summer break if my lips don’t heal..   [End]
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Hi Daniel, i was wondering isn’t the that skin still a little raw? I am not trying to deny your progress but I remember when I first did the leave alone method and there was a crust that lasted for over a month before it finally came off. When it came off the skin was a little red but it felt really soft and smooth, but after a couple of days (almost a week), it just started hardening up again and now it is a crust again -.-. I hope yours has finally healed though. I still don’t know what to do.. only have 1 month left until school.   [End]
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I don’t know if it will work for you, but I think aquaphor contributed to my EC. (my story..) Basically I have had dry peeling lips for like 8 years but it was not like EC, it did not turn white when water touched it and did not peel in layers but still always looked chapped so I went to the doctor 2 years ago and they gave me aquaphor. But whenever I used it, it just made my lips peel more- it gave my lips a sticky, wet feeling. Then I found a way to make my lips look good for by peeling off all the skin that stood out and putting aquaphor at night every day for like 4-5 months but ...
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Hi. I just went to a dermatologist and she told me to remove all of my crusts and said my lips won’t heal with all the crusts and scabs in the way and told me to apply protopic on my lips but I am not sure if I should do it. She also said I should be putting vasaline on my lips like 24/7. I just got a message to make an appointment for a lip biopsy and my dermatologist told me to continue using the protopic until the lip biopsy but I don’t really want to remove my crusts but I don’t want to go back for the lip biopsy with the crusts still on or they will say I didn’t do what I was told ...
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Hi. The top part of my top lip is the only part of my lip that does not have EC, i mean that it is the only part that does not peel and dry. But I have a question, I noticed the top part of my lip always has this kind of whitish scaly skin. I always thought that was just dead skin from other parts of my lips that got there somehow and I always just scratched it off and nothing bad happened. But it just appears again after a while and I can’t figure out whether it is real skin or dead skin from other parts of my lips. If it is real skin, I don’t want to scratch it off because it will ... [Image Embedded Here]
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Hmm I have always been getting my top lip wet from drinking water (I never use a straw) and my top lip has made no progress in healing whatsoever in last 1.5 months, in fact, my top lip skin peels way more than my bottom lip. :/   [End]
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When I went to my dermatologist a long time ago, when he thought my dry, peeling lips might be from allergic reaction, he prescribed some pills called prednisone to take for 2 weeks and when I was taking it, it seemed like it was helping a little, my lips did not peel as easily but I could only take it for 2 weeks because it is not supposed to be a long time medication. Then I went back and told my derm and he told me to take a patch test to test for allergies but my patch test all came out negative so he does not think it is allergies but I still am not sure if it is allergic reaction or ...
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