Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional Dis... 
jurplesman
17 y
3,554
The popular view of alcoholism us that it is primarily a "mental Illness" that can or must be treated by a change of belief , attitudes and ways of thinking. The more modern view is - backed up by medical Science - that alcoholism is really a physical disease that is related to to consumption of food.
An alcoholic - and for that matter anybody addicted to xenobiotic chemicals - appears to have a problem in producing feel good neurotransmitters such as serotonin from food sources such as tryptophan.
This biochemical pathway is complex in itself, requiring a host of nutrients as co-enzymes in the production of feel good brain chemicals, such as zinc, magnesium, Vitamin B complex, B6, B3, B12 and so on and on. Without a high protein diet the person is likely to be deficient in tryptophan.
What is often overlooked is that in order for the body to convert one set of molecules into another set of molecules - as in the conversion of tryptophan into serotonin - the body also needs biological energy to complete this conversion. That energy ultimately derives from glucose in food. When a person has problems absorbing and metabolizing sugars in the diet as a source of biological energy, he cannot produce feel good neurotransmitters and so the alcoholic without his drug of addiction becomes depressed and emotionally unstable. Alcohol, also derived from glucose and manufactured by other than humans (brewer's yeast) is a cheap source of energy, that among others also produces acetaldehyde, toxic to the liver and brain.
When he withdraws from alcohol he often replaces his addiction to Sugar addiction in a vain attempt to produce biological energy. His inability of producing biological energy is usually due to insulin resistance, leading to a hypoglycemic condition marked by wild fluctuations of blood Sugar levels going up and down.
These unstable blood Sugar levels, feeding the brain, trigger the release of stress hormones such as adrenaline. Thus withdrawing from alcohol may lead to erratic behaviour, marked by anxiety, insomnia and perhaps aggression and/or depression.
There are some remedies that can reduce these symptoms. The ultimate solution is the treat the insulin resistance that seems to be at the root of addiction.
Please read:
Drug Addition is a Nutritional Disorder at:
http://www.hypoglycemia.asn.au/articles/drug_addictions_nutritional_disorder....
for a further explanation.
_______________________________________________
Jurriaan Plesman BA (Psych) Post Grad Dip Clin Nutr
Editor of
The Hypoglycemic Health Association of Australia.
Author of "Getting off the Hook"
Freely available at Google Book Search
More
- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... shadowalker164
17 y
3,407
MoreThis is a reply to # 1,029,142Jurplesman…
Hello again. I see you posting on the web here and there.
If I remember it right, you were having a hard time a while back, getting the addiction treatment institutions to adopt your ideas on alcoholism and drug addiction.
Has anything changed? Are you meeting more success these days?
Richard
p.s. if the “popular view” of alcoholism you refer is the one I think it is, alcoholism in that organization isn’t viewed, at it’s heart, as a mental or a physical illness. It runs a little deeper than that.
- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... jurplesman
17 y
3,179
This is a reply to # 1,029,245Hi Richard,
Nice to hear from you again. The situation has not changed. Listening to TV programs and radio talks the word has not got around that addiction problems are mainly due to a physical disease, easily tested by medical tests.
So I keep on posting my posts in the hope that this information is more available to those who should know better.
_______________________________________________
Jurriaan Plesman BA (Psych) Post Grad Dip Clin Nutr
Editor of
The Hypoglycemic Health Association of Australia.
Author of "Getting off the Hook"
Freely available at Google Book Search
- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... shadowalker164
17 y
3,231
This is a reply to # 1,029,686Jurriaan, A guy I see posting here said something I agree with. I paraphrase… The old school thinking is not very responsive to change. Change, when it comes, comes from subsequent generations.
My wife told me this story, This band of monkeys always ate fruit that fell on the ground. It got covered with dirt, but they ate it anyway. One day this female discovered that she could wash it in water to get the dirt off. She showed that trick to her kids and they did it too. But the old males who ran the band refused to learn to wash the fruit. They grew old and died never adopting the new way. They ate their fruit dirty in spite of being shown a better way. But after their deaths, all the band now washes their fruit before eating it. Just a case in point. In time, a good idea will win out.
Keep up the good fight my friend. Apes aren’t the only beings where the old school resists change. If your stuff has therapeutic benefit, people just coming into the recovery industry will look at it with a less jaundiced eye than their predecessors.
Richard
- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... jurplesman
17 y
3,237
This is a reply to # 1,031,234Hi Richard,
I like that story of the monkeys.
Here is another quotation by Max Planck:
“A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.”
Max Planck (1858-1947) German physicist and Nobel laureate
Cheers
Jur
_______________________________________________
Jurriaan Plesman BA (Psych) Post Grad Dip Clin Nutr
Editor of
The Hypoglycemic Health Association of Australia.
Author of "Getting off the Hook"
Freely available at Google Book Search
- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... shadowalker164
17 y
3,276
This is a reply to # 1,031,553That’s the quote I remember! Maybe you were the one who said it that I remember. Who knows. I can’t remember what I had for dinner last night, the 60’s were good to me J
I think there is another reference in another tomb that says that a prophet will always be stoned in his homeland.
Jurriaan, keep up your work, your reward awaits, if not in this world, then maybe in the next.
Richard- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... jurplesman
17 y
3,133
This is a reply to # 1,031,884I am sure it must be in the next.
Anyway thanks for your valuable support.
Jurriaan Plesman
- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... jurplesman
17 y
3,133
- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... shadowalker164
17 y
3,276
- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... jurplesman
17 y
3,237
- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... shadowalker164
17 y
3,231
- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... jurplesman
17 y
3,179
- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... chris39
17 y
3,190
This is a reply to # 1,029,142Hello
I have visited your site and find all the information you give quite fascinating. I have tried everything to get off alcohol, but always find myself slipping- even though I hate the stuff and what it does.
Could you please give me some pointers on how to treat insulin resistance?
Thank you so much in advance
Chris- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... #50348
17 y
3,174
This is a reply to # 1,042,907Chris,
Alcoholism is a 3-part disease:
1. A disease of the body, which manifests in the "craving" for alcohol. The craving is unique to alcoholics -- hence the phrase, "the phenomenon of craving." What it means is that if you are bodily different than normal drinkers because you have this condition, once you put a drink in your system, your body will continue to want more. Hence that "one drink" after work and a vow to go home for dinner turns into another long night out drinking, wondering why you could not stop. This is why we say alcoholics are physically powerless over alcohol.
I do believe the craving is a sugar/blood-sugar problem, and one that the early AA's did not know about or understand (or the doctors who advised them). Although I have always been able to stop eating sugar, but could never stop drinking after that first drink until I was out of options for getting the next one (i.e. passed out, or out of alcohol with no chance at getting more).
2. A disease of the mind. Any person in his or her right mind would NEVER drink that first drink if they knew they had that inability to stop once they had started, right? So the mind, too, is ill -- hence, the "mental illness" part of the disease. An alcoholic goes back to that first drink believing it will be "different" this time, or that he or she will be able to control and enjoy their drinking. (That is a great test to see whether you are alcoholic -- can you both control AND enjoy your drinking?) An alcoholic needs "restoration to sanity" because he or she keeps going back to that first drink, expecting a different result -- to be able to take one or two drinks, but to control it -- but the result is always the same: the craving kicks in and we have no idea how long we will drink or where we will end up. This insanity shows how the alcoholic is mentally powerless over alcohol; every earnest vow he or she takes to stop drinking or to control their drinking is inevitably destroyed by taking the first drink, leading to the craving, etc.
3. A disease of the spirit. The "spiritual malady" that ails the alcoholic is not exclusive to alcoholics. But alcoholic unmanageability manifests for the alcoholic with alcohol being a "solution" for everything -- good times and bad times, joy and stress, weddings and funerals, etc. Recovery treats this part of the disease and we believe that if you treat the spirit, the mind and body will follow. How you go about this is to develop a relationship with a power greater than yourself in order to achieve neutrality around or immunity to alcohol.
http://www.aa.org
to find a meeting near you.
Looking at one aspect without considering the others is a failure to understand alcoholism. The medical world (at least in the US) simply looks at the condition as a mental illness, as mentioned in an earlier post, and seems to stop there. I'm convinced that the Sugar craving is part of the alcoholic's craving problem, too -- and I don't doubt that other physical mechanisms are at play, like the increased need for serotonin. However, in the absence of any other definitive treatment, recovery does remain the only option for a cure that works (and which: 1) does not require any additional drugs to work; b) will provide you with amazing people to hang out with and become friends with; and c) also will rocket you into a fourth dimension (don't ask!). How can you beat that? ;) And in my opinion, the best work that can be done on the body of a recovering alcoholic is to replenish and repair through nutrition.
Good luck to you! Please e-mail me if I can be helpful to you with any other info, etc.
(Anonymous CZ user) - Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... jurplesman
17 y
3,174
This is a reply to # 1,042,907Hello Chris,
I don't know whether you have read the article
Drug Addition is a Nutritional Disorder at:
http://www.hypoglycemia.asn.au/articles/drug_addictions_nutritional_disorder....
Also see:
http://www.hypoglycemia.asn.au/articles/alcoholism_treatable.html
I do mention GLYCERINE during the withdrawal period. This is metabolized into glucose via the liver and does not rigger an excess insulin response, crashing your blood Sugar levels.
An another article that may be of interest is:
“Nutrition against Drugs and Alcohol” at:
//www.curezone.org/upload/Newsletter/Hypoglycemic_He/HYPONL9209.pdf
Go to page 2 of Newsletter.
The main task is to beat the insulin resistance by nutritional means, whether you relapse or not. Keep at it. Your health body is going to control your mind!!
_______________________________________________
Jurriaan Plesman BA (Psych) Post Grad Dip Clin Nutr
Editor of
The Hypoglycemic Health Association of Australia.
Author of "Getting off the Hook"
Freely available at Google Book Search
- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... chris39
17 y
3,112
This is a reply to # 1,043,596Thank you both so much for these extremely informative replies.
This is all very very helpful. I will begin the nutritional recovery over the next few days as soon as I can get what I may need, I then have the feeling tackling the mental and spiritual side of it will become a lot easier.
I will update this thread on my progress.
Just for the record (for those who would be interested to follow my progres) I haven't had a drink for 4 days, but am now having slight cravings, although it is only 11 am. This is my pattern- then a bender is likely to begin followed by a few days abstinance due to the horror of how I acted, then when the memory fades, the thought that 'a few beers would be nice' enters my head and off we go again.
Thanks so much again,
Chris
- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... #50348
17 y
3,120
This is a reply to # 1,043,686Hi Chris,
The problem you describe -- controlling your drinking for a short period of time, followed by a return to drinking and a bender -- illustrates the relationship between the craving and the mental obsession. Your mind, even after a period of abstinence, will inevitably return to the idea that a drink or two would be a good idea.
There was a lot of confusion for me around that -- I would wake up after a drinking binge and have simply awful feelings of remorse over having drank again, coupled with terrible fear about what I did or might have done. I was a "brownout" drinker -- rather than completely blacking out all the time, I could usually piece together a few remnants of what I had done or where I had been, but rarely could I remember the whole time, which led to a lot of stress and worry, talking to people to try and figure out if I had said or done anything completely offensive, etc. The anxiety around that was terrible. And at the root of all of the panic was complete bewilderment over why I had taken the first drink to begin with.
I found the posts on glycerine interesting a few months ago, and again, I do believe that the physical craving enacted by the first drink is related to a blood-sugar problem. However, I don't believe that if you solve the physical craving you have solved the entire problem at all, because as you describe, the mind will return to the drink idea and a drink will follow.
One thing that helps me understand the insanity of the first drink is to list a lot of my drinking consequences (inappropriate/embarassing behaviour, waking up in strange places, jail, arguing/fighting with loved ones, physical degradation -- bruises galore, sprained ankles, unexplained cuts, etc. and not knowing exactly how I ever got those -- and so forth) and then seeing that despite how crazy all of that is, admitting that the real insanity rested in the period of time you describe: the obsession to take the first drink of the day or evening, which would result in some or all of those things happening!
Alcoholics used to be counseled, after they stopped drinking, to keep chocolates or other sweets nearby for when they had the desire for a drink, which speaks to the Sugar connection. I remember trying to do a version of this with a heavy carb dinner, etc. -- but inevitably the mind will take over and the drink will occur. I can't tell you how many times I swore I would not drink on a certain day and then had a drink, despite everything I tried or how earnestly I thought about alternate plans, etc.. It was completely baffling to me, and when people asked me why I didn't stop drinking, I had no response, because that was the question I kept asking myself. It was not a question that would be answered until I got really clear on the relationship between the physical craving and the mental obsession -- that the real problem an alcoholic faces centers in the mind, not in the body -- the craving would not matter at all if we never took the first drink.
My suggestion is that you get a copy of the AA basic text and read the first few chapters, paying close attention to "The Doctor's Opinion," where you will find a description of the phenomenon of craving, and "More About Alcohlism," where you will learn more about the mental obsession.
- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... jurplesman
17 y
3,068
This is a reply to # 1,043,710HI 50348,
You describe how the craving for drinking returns for psychological reasons and not biological reasons. You suggested that the proof for this was that after you << do a version of this with a heavy carb dinner, etc. -- but inevitably the mind will take over and the drink will occur.>>
But a heavy carb dinner would worsen the craving because this would trigger excess insulin secretion causing a hypoglycemic dip ---> craving. It was not the mind which took over, but the body. If you want to stop the craving you need to make sure that the brain is not starved of biological energy ultimately derived form the sugars in food. Insulin resistance causes an unstable blood Sugar supply to the brain, triggering cravings to try to stabilize energy supply to the brain. Therefore you need to treat the insulin resistance that lies at the root of addiction.
Please read:
Drug Addition is a Nutritional Disorder at:
http://www.hypoglycemia.asn.au/articles/drug_addictions_nutritional_disorder....
and
Alcoholism is a treatable Disease at:
http://www.hypoglycemia.asn.au/articles/alcoholism_treatable.html
_______________________________________________
Jurriaan Plesman BA (Psych) Post Grad Dip Clin Nutr
Editor of
The Hypoglycemic Health Association of Australia.
Author of "Getting off the Hook"
Freely available at Google Book Search
- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... #50348
17 y
3,202
This is a reply to # 1,044,043Hi Jurplesman,
I do find your arguments very interesting and compelling when it comes to the *physical+ part of addiction and alcoholism. I do, however, think you misunderstood my point to Chris in the example, and don't think that the physical explanation is enough. If you would like to discuss the mechanisms of insulin resistance and how it relates to the craving put in place by drink #1, I am all ears!
However, my point to Chris is that the mental obsession with alcohol is the real problem. If the mind was not a problem, the first drink would always be decided againt and the whole problem of drinking too much would be sidestepped.
I've seen too many people enter recovery and stay for long periods of time without relapse, and without, to my knowledge, changing their eating habits too much, to believe that it's solely a physical issue. I've seen too many people relapse after getting out of a treatment program that, for instance, focuses on what you recommend -- a high-protein diet to supplement detox and early abstinence to believe diet and nutrition is the only part of the answer we need to pay attention to.
And I'm too familiar with the spiritual malady that alcohol "cures" for the alcoholic to believe that a physical remedy for alcoholism would be enough for a real alcoholic.
You might want to familiarize yourself with the disease as set forth in the AA basic text, the "Big Book." There is a very specific definition for the mental part of the disease that might jive with the rest of your theories, but it's really what alcohol does for the alcoholic spiritually that the program treats, with the result that the mental obsession to drink again is removed.
I am completely open to the idea that God can change my level of insulin resistence, though, if that is what it took to eliminate my desire to drink and to provide me with a feeling of immunity around alcohol! ;)
- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... jurplesman
17 y
3,169
This is a reply to # 1,044,079HI 50348.
You write:
"I've seen too many people enter recovery and stay for long periods of time without relapse, and without, to my knowledge, changing their eating habits too much, to believe that it's solely a physical issue. I've seen too many people relapse after getting out of a treatment program that, for instance, focuses on what you recommend -- a high-protein diet to supplement detox and early abstinence to believe diet and nutrition is the only part of the answer we need to pay attention to"
This reinforces my point, that if you do not change your diet - in other words do not treat the underlying insulin resistance - you are more likely to relapse. Being on a high protein diet is not necessarily treating insulin resistance.
I can understand that the feelings of cravings for alcohol or for that matter any cravings have "psychological" components or consequences and give the illusion that somehow the "mind" makes you crave. They are really your body telling you that you need whatever you are craving for. Thus craving for alcohol is the body telling you that your brain cannot produce the feel good neurotransmitters, because of lack of biological energy, which is derived from the sugars in your food and which is not converted to biological energy because of insulin resistance.
Also see:
Sugar Cravings at:
//www.curezone.org/upload/PDF/Articles/jurplesman/Sugar_Craving3.pdf
Being thirsty, being hungry or craving alcohol or Sugar are physiological processes that are recorded into consciousness, so that you can take action to look after the interest of the body. When you have a metabolic disorder the body might give you the wrong signals, but it is physiological at all times.
Another misconception is that nutritional therapy is a high protein diet. It is far more than that. Nutritional therapy aims at treating SPECIFIC nutritional disorders (such as insulin resistance) that are known to be responsible for mood disorders. There are many other diseases apart from hypoglycemia, that can cause mood disorders, such as allergies and food sensitivities , digestive illnesses, specific nutritional deficiencies or sensitivities and a host of undiagnosed degenerative diseases.
Please see:
Psychiatric Presentations of medical Illness by Ronald Diamond MD at:
http://www.alternativementalhealth.com/articles/diamond.htm
and
Diseases associated with Emotional Disorders at:
http://www.hypoglycemia.asn.au/articles/emotional_disorders.html
Thus if a high protein diet does not work it usually is because some ingredients in a "healthy diet" may be toxic to the individual.
_______________________________________________
Jurriaan Plesman BA (Psych) Post Grad Dip Clin Nutr
Editor of
The Hypoglycemic Health Association of Australia.
Author of "Getting off the Hook"
Freely available at Google Book Search
- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... #50348
17 y
3,118
This is a reply to # 1,044,793Hi,
I am not interested in arguing your points; only being helpful to Chris. I will say that there are a lot of people who have receovered from alcoholism and not changed their diets or gained weight from eating more carbs or sugars to compensate.
My personal experience and experience watching hundreds of people stop drinking and "stay stopped" tells me that this disease does in fact extend beyond the physical and into the realms of the mental and spiritual. I am absolutely willing to believe everything you say about the relationship between drinking and insulin resistance, but my experience tells me, again, that someone trying to stop who is a true alcoholic will not be able to stay stopped for any length of time if they try to treat the physical craving alone -- which can be treated by not picking up the first drink, which leads me back to a point in an earlier post -- the real problem faced by the alcoholic lies in the mind, which will tell him or her that a drink might be a good idea!
Again, I suggest you become more familiar with the nature of alcoholism as a condition of the mind, body and spirit -- and again, I am perfectly willing to believe that I and all my friends over the years have been divinely delivered of insulin resistance, but I assure you that it did not come about by any change in diet, exercise, etc.!
Best,
503- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... jurplesman
17 y
3,139
This is a reply to # 1,044,979You say there are lots or people who have recovered from alcoholism without therapy but statistics given in this regard are always pretty rubbery and controversial.
In this regard it is interesting to read:
A New View of Addiction: Simple and Complex by Frank Riessman and David Carroll at:
http://www.selfhelpweb.org/addiction.html
who regard those who recover without any therapy whatsoever usually suffered from "simple" addiction, as distinct from "complex" addiction.
You say: "but my experience tells me, again, that someone trying to stop who is a true alcoholic will not be able to stay stopped for any length of time if they try to treat the physical craving alone -- which can be treated by not picking up the first drink, which leads me back to a point in an earlier post -- the real problem faced by the alcoholic lies in the mind, which will tell him or her that a drink might be a good idea!".
Why pick up the first drink if you have no craving? Thus you are saying that if you can stop the physical craving for alcohol, then the alcoholic will still relapse, because the craving is " in the mind". How can you have a craving for something in he mind, if you don't have physical craving? A craving is always physical, unless you want to use the term in a poem of romantic story.
I have no intention to be argumentative with you, but I always object to anybody advising other addicts, that addiction is "really in the mind". This is perpetuating the misconception about the nature of addiction and will eventually add to the dismal failure of addiction treatment centres who continue to propagate this popular myth.
I am perfectly willing to accept that the alcoholic may experience a craving, and that this will delude him into believing that it is is in his mind. This is just like any other person with a mood disorders who may believe that demons are making life miserable. The point is that whenever a person experience "cravings" it is easy to demonstrate by medical tests that the person lacks certain nutritional substances that cause him to "crave".
_______________________________________________
Jurriaan Plesman BA (Psych) Post Grad Dip Clin Nutr
Editor of
The Hypoglycemic Health Association of Australia.
Author of "Getting off the Hook"
Freely available at Google Book Search
- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... #50348
17 y
3,102
This is a reply to # 1,045,520J -- I see what you are saying. What I was trying to explain (which the book "Alcoholics Anonymous" does much better than I can!) is that we use "craving" to describe the reaction that sets in after the first drink, specifically. i.e. it takes a drink to enact that craving, followed by a loss of control over the amount that will be consumed after the craving sets in. I would love to hear your analysis of the first few chapters of the book that deal with the physical craving/mental obsession explanations -- I've always felt that there is a real physiological component and therefore explanation to the physical craving and to the idea that alcoholism is a "progressive" illness (i.e. it gets worse, never better). The book suggests that women can suffer differently than men, which also makes me curious about how physiological gender differences may affect alcoholics. The problem in the mind is the "obsession" with taking that first drink, and I think your explanations could be right some of the time, perhaps. That it is a physiological response to a mental desire for the sugar and the physiological response that follows. However, I have seen so many people recover who don't experience that obsession/craving ever again that I don't think it is that simple. And I have seen people relapse after 15 or 20 years of sobriety, which does not to me suggest a physiological craving has suddenly set in after years of abstinence, but in fact what they report if they return to recovery -- life got too uncofortable for them in the absence of spiritual fitness, and they decided to drink again. What is absent in any discussion of a nutritional/physiological approach to alcoholism alone is its power over the mind and spirit. You may find the following letter from Carl Jung to AA founder Bill Wilson edifying in this regard: http://www.thejaywalker.com/pages/jung_ltr.html The point being that alcohol not only does for the drinker perhaps all that you suggest, but something even more powerful on a spiritual level. Which means that if you can acquire an effective spiritual replacement, an abatement of any mental and physical desire will occur. This took place for me. I had complete abatement of desire for alcohol. Whereas I had no hope of controlling my drinking for the last several years the compulsion to drink was removed in a short period of time for me. I have seen this happen over and over again -- someone who could not exist without drinking on a daily basis, who follows a few simple suggestions and reports that same immunity around alcohol. Someone asked me once if everyone in AA was fat, because they must have to start eating sugar when they stop drinking! The answer, of course, is no. Anyway, I hope the above letter makes you better understand where I come from -- all discussions of physical, mental, or physical/mental solutions become moot when we first address the spiritual. Best, 503
- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... jurplesman
15 y
2,678
This is a reply to # 1,045,756This is still a MIND over MATTER argument that I reject as a treatment model.
Have a look at:
Self-Help Personal Growth Program at:
http://www.hypoglycemia.asn.au/articles/self-help_personal_growth.html
where I argue that BIOCHEMISTRY BEFORE PSYCHOLOGY in the treatment of mood disorders.
- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... jurplesman
15 y
2,678
- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... #50348
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- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... jurplesman
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- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... #50348
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- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... jurplesman
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- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... #50348
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- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... jurplesman
17 y
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- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... #50348
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- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... chris39
17 y
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- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... #50348
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- Re: Alcoholism seen as a Nutritional... shadowalker164
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