Hoax allegations 
majestic_cheese
18 y
4,669
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Hi, I'm new here. I've been having some lower GI and related ailments lately, and have been using some of the Dr. Schulze products, and now feel rather better. The Intestinal Formula #1 is moving my bowels very regularly (2-4 times a day!), though I did the formula #2 and didn't notice any big expulsion and didn't really feel different after doing it.
I am very skeptical of orthodox medicine -- it killed my mother in 2002 (Chemo on a very unwell, elderly woman led to toxic shock and then death after the first treatment). If I weren't, I wouldn't be here. That same skepticism has got me wondering about some of these cures. Anything that is valid should be open to close scrutiny, and so natural curing methods should be too.
I've read a lot of stuff on the internet about how liver/GB flush is basically a fraud. It's said that the *treatment itself* causes the so-called soft "stones" that are excreted -- it's the olive oil mixed with bile that is excreted, generally, and then these are claimed to be a body ailment.
This site provides a round-up of the criticisms of Dr. Clark:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/clark.html
Some sites say that the GB is a one-way-out organ, so this treatment is not getting into the GB in the first place (though that one I don't lend too much credence to -- the treatment doesn't need to get INTO the organ to AFFECT it).
This site says that:
http://www.danieljselby.com/gallbladder.html
I'd love to hear from some of you who could counter these charges: have any of you passed real bona fide Gallstones -- hard as rocks, not gooey and dissolving?
By the way, there are those who say that the Dr. Schulze Intestinal Formula #2 is the same basic principle -- ailment masquerading as cure. According to them, it packs your intestines with the herbs and clay, then that is what comes out eventually. Doctors who have done thousands of autopsies say they have never seen the purported impacted fecal matter in the colon. Notice I am actively engaged in alternative cures and have done Schulze's formula #2 as well as his regimen for GB flush (neither worked -- I've never done The Clark Flush , but plan to).
So I am not some kind of fifth columnist or something! But a utilitarian inquiry is good for any legitimate process, and alternative cures are not exception. Looking forward to any input. Thanks.Advertisement
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- Re: Hoax allegations JohnnySmith
18 y
4,128
This is a reply to # 413,744With All Due Respect Sir, this allegation has been addressed a long time ago.
//www.curezone.org/forums/m.asp?f=73&i=553
Now, I believe that is okay to be skeptical, but an ounce of skepticism should be tempered with a pound of open mindedness. The saying is that if it sounds too good to be true, then it probably isn't. I don't believe this holds true for the liver flush. There are countless posters who have posted relief from a host of health maladies by performing flushes. The commonality in the positive experiences excludes any possiblity that this is just some coincidence, not when you have that many people reporting positive benefits. Many reported benefits are physical(dramatic reduction in in acne), so one can strictly chalk these up to some "placebo effect." And yes, at the same time, the reported experiences are sometimes contradictory and inconsistent(e.g., reduction in cholestorol). However, these may have to do more with hereditary and biochemical differences in flushers and differences in their lifestyles(diet consumed and level of exercise)than the flush itself. For arguement sake, even if it was true that the flush does not rid the body of gallstones, this is really a mute point since it takes nothning away from the undeniable improvement in health that many posters experience. Also, one thing to keep in mind is that there is no marketing company that exclusively sells the Liver Flush ingredients, so that it is not likely that posters are being paid to post positive experiences. The ingredients for the recipe are OTC items freely available to all. Finally, I believe that one needs to try things on their own to see what works best for them. What is the alternative?? A lifetime of prescription drugs, whose long term effects are not and cannot be established. If you were in excruciating pain and paying thousands of dollars in prescription drugs with no relief in site and someone said to you, hey, if you try the liverflush it may help? Wouldn't you be willing to try since you had absolutely nothing to lose. For me, the Liver Flush is only "one" important component to maintaining good health. Healthy eating and daily exercise make up the rest.
Best Wishes.
- Re: Hoax allegations grzbear
18 y
6,432
RN
This is a reply to # 413,744This may be better suited for the open debate forum. That said, after four flushes I have a hard time believing most of the statements on these sites as each flush has produced significantly different results. If the “stones” were the result of a combination of flush ingredients with the bile, then each flush would produce the SAME results in elimination; this has definitely NOT been the case.
I have felt significantly better after each flush, especially in terms of alertness AND my ability to focus on a task. I began my journey in cleansing and flushing as a skeptic; however I now believe they can be an important part of an individual’s journey towards health.
I will soon be going back to the physician who helped me start on this journey by inciting me to anger, enabling me to take responsibility for my own health. I have just received my card to do my annual physical. Last year my BP was 170/110, it is now consistently under 120/80; my weight has gone from 280 to 235; my resting heart rate has gone from 80 - 85 to 62... All this from change in lifestyle including, diet, exercise and cleanses. I do strongly believe that the changes are a result of all these things. The moment of truth will be my blood test results, which should show whether or not my fasting glucose, liver enzymes, and thyroid are better. I will certainly post one way or the other.
grzbear
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- Congratulations! Anger has it's uses... jelequa 18 y 2,759
- oops happydog
18 y
5,882
This is a reply to # 413,744I responded to this post when it was on the support forum. Since it's been moved to the debate forum I've deleted my message.
- Re: Yawn #46493
18 y
3,438
MoreThis is a reply to # 413,747"yawn"---rude responses gain no newe converts...sorry about that buddy, not all of us are like that!
- Re: oops travlinggypsy
18 y
2,764
- Re: oops happydog
18 y
3,264
R
This is a reply to # 413,780My cholesterol went from 200 to 119 from liver flushing. And by the way I consume plenty of raw grassfed dairy products like cream, butter, cottage cheese, yogurt and cheese. Lots of eggs from free roaming chickens, and lots of organic virgin olive oil, palm oil, coconut oil. The exact opposite of what doctors recommend.
I am completely convinced that Liver Flushing has added years to my life :)
- Re: oops happydog
18 y
3,264
R
- Re: Yawn #46493
18 y
3,438
- Some responses majestic_cheese
18 y
3,658
This is a reply to # 413,744First, thanks to the Webmaster for moving this to the correct forum.
Just a few notes as to general issues. I'm not coming on here as a new person telling people how to post, but I'm afraid that my question might get lost in some of the dismissals so far.
1) "Yawn, it's all be discussed before"
That's a common attitude on a busy webforum, but it's a little surprising to see it voiced to a new member. While I'm sure this has been discussed many times, that doesn't mean it can't be discussed again. And there are thousands of messages on these boards -- with that attitude no one need ever post here again, as I'm sure it's ALL be discussed before, in one form or another.
2) "10% skepticism, 90% open mindedness are needed"
I disagree. I think you should have as much of each as is necessary to accomplish your goal. Asking if something has actually worked for people, and what the responses are to criticisms, is not being "overly cynical." It's open discussion.
And of course, open-mindedness IS cynicism -- cynicism about the orthodox opinion. You do that because you want to find the truth instead of What the Establishment Says is True. You don't suddenly throw that attitude overboard when it comes to the alternative -- or at least you shouldn't. If you do, you are just replacing one Big Brother for another.
3) "If it doesn't hurt you, what's the harm, just try it."
I don't think this is the right answer when it comes to fundamental health issues. If you are experiencing problems and you are doing something you think it helping, but it's not, you could literally be killing yourself.
MUCH more helpful have been the testimonies of actual stones passed, though I'd be very interested to hear some details about these stones. Were they solid and remained solid to date -- like rocks you'd find in the yard, rather than something that gets mushy and evaporates? I've read and seen lots of testimonies on this board, but I'd like to get some real gritty detail (pardon the expression!) on the stones that you actually pass. The photos I've seen don't specifically say whether they were passed in a flush or removed during surgery, for instance.- Edited #25274
18 y
3,258
MoreThis is a reply to # 413,748
Answers you are looking for are in "Frequently asked Questions"
next to that is "Liver Cleanse Recipe" both on top of Liver-Flush Forum
- Re: Some responses health_nutty
18 y
3,261
This is a reply to # 413,748Advertisement
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I think it is appropriate to be skeptical.
My first 3 flushes (of about 15) I flushed the soft green balls (a smaller amount each time). After that I never got anymore of the green soft stones. Since I've flushed out more solid stones and gritty sandy stuff. Most of them are relatively small (pea sized or smaller). I can actually feel them coming out of my liver and I can see them in my stool (they sink to the bottom). I squeezed one and it is hard and doesn't not squish like the soap stones.
It seems like the liver "decongests" during the first few flushes, then gets cleaned out enough to expell calcified stones.- Re: Some responses majestic_cheese
18 y
3,052
This is a reply to # 413,750health_nutty, thanks so much for relating your experience in a helpful manner. That's some interesting information for me to chew on.
- Re: Some responses majestic_cheese
18 y
3,052
- Re: Some responses Hidden Username
18 y
3,370
This is a reply to # 413,748Well here's what the Epsom Salt Counsil has to say, it's also on the bag!:
http://www.epsomsaltcouncil.org/health_benefits.htm
Health Benefits
Why It Works
Health Usage Tips
Studies show these benefits from the major components of Epsom Salt may:
Magnesium:
Ease stress and improves sleep and concentration
Help muscles and nerves function properly
Regulate activity of 325+ enzymes
Help prevent artery hardening and blood clots
Make insulin more effective
Reduce inflammation to relieve pain and muscle cramps
Improve oxygen use
Sulfates:
Flush toxins
Improve absorption of nutrients
Help form joint proteins, brain tissue and mucin proteins
Help prevent or ease migraine headaches
- Re: Some responses Hidden Username
18 y
3,161
This is a reply to # 413,751The site also has many studies, articles and uses for Espsom Salt, very interesting!
- Re: Some responses Hidden Username
18 y
3,161
- Re: Some responses DangerousProduce
18 y
3,601
This is a reply to # 413,748Advertisement
9 Day Fasting Program
Complete with herbs and clay to eliminate hunger and cleansing reactions.
.........................keep putting the puzzle together..........................
It's sad that people will wait for the pain of shock before deciding to come face to face with their conditioned (learned) prejudices, although this is what most people do. They do it simply because the prejudice against natural medicine/healing is not unveiled and talked about by teachers in school(s) (or by parents), the place where one would expect to get a grip on one's own prejudice(s) in order to examine it later.
1)Here is a debate that goes to the heart of your issue. If you prefer a conversation-type way of gathering information, rather than a listing of facts as in a dictionary or encyclopedia go back to page 4 in this debate forum (near top) and click on "Could this be gallstones? The Lancet Volume 365,.....by Webmaster." It continues over several pages even including eating natural dye material (ie.beets) that sticks to Gallstones along with doing the liver flush. This was done to make what comes out more readily verifiable. (Chemistry or logic majors--enjoy)
2)Here is a "Lab report [that] reveals flushed stones [retrieved from toilet bowl] consistent with Gallstones by #10360 (06/01/2005)." Here is the link inside that post that takes you to pictures and lab report. They look like creek rocks. http://www.angelhealingcenter.com/GallstonePictures.html
3)All of the flushed "stones" did not get gooey and disappear as many of the Liver Flush participants put their results in jars and took their results to their doctors. Stones from gb surgery or from Liver Flush have to be placed in solution in order to preseve their longevity.
For a story about length of time, read "Experience: Calcified Stones?...(05/03/02)" simply type in "gallstones, jar" into the search box at top right and then scroll down to the 4th entry with the same title.
All of your friends who prejudge what comes out in Liver Flushes will have already decided that only those Gallstones removed by surgery are gallstones. There isn't any amount of lab tests or lengthy arguments that will convince them because,
it will go against their PRINCIPLE THAT ONLY SURGERY CAN GET GALLSTONES. (..or find them out)
The more arguments and pictures you bring out to show the opposite the angrier they will get.
They need to experience it to believe it. That will be very convincing. Then they won't need 1,000 lab reports from other people's liver flushes. On a cold, winter day, if you are the one in the cold, would you rather read about the warmth of the sun, or experience it?
Like someone said, "No man is an island." We are all influenced by others. How much of your skepticism is caused by you and how much by others?
Ask yourself, since I started this program I'm on, is my thinking:
A. Clearer
B. Worse
C. the same
- Re: Some responses majestic_cheese
18 y
2,971
This is a reply to # 413,753".........................keep putting the puzzle together.........................."
I will. Thanks for the information. The cite about the surgery removed stones is interesting.
- Re: Some responses majestic_cheese
18 y
2,971
- Re: Some responses JohnnySmith
18 y
3,067
This is a reply to # 413,748"2) "10% skepticism, 90% open mindedness are needed"
I disagree. I think you should have as much of each as is necessary to accomplish your goal. Asking if something has actually worked for people, and what the responses are to criticisms, is not being "overly cynical." It's open discussion.
And of course, open-mindedness IS cynicism -- cynicism about the orthodox opinion. You do that because you want to find the truth instead of What the Establishment Says is True. You don't suddenly throw that attitude overboard when it comes to the alternative -- or at least you shouldn't. If you do, you are just replacing one Big Brother for another."
The fact that 90% open mindedness and 10% skepticism has led to some of the most profound discoveries in the world(everything from the theory of relativity to the discovery of electricity). If it weren't for this attitude, we would all still be in the stoneage.
You were given a link that clearly addresses whether the Liver Flush has actually worked for people and whether gall stones were really released. Plus on top of that as other posters have stated, the answers you search are all clearly posted, you only need use the search button. Perhaps, it would have been more logical for you to search for the answers you sought as they were already posted. Then you would have have been in a position to make a more logical query. It is evident that you did not do this.
3) "If it doesn't hurt you, what's the harm, just try it."
I don't think this is the right answer when it comes to fundamental health issues. If you are experiencing problems and you are doing something you think it helping, but it's not, you could literally be killing yourself.
And what exactly are you doing, when you consume pharmeceutical drugs?? In my possession, I have a Compendium Of Pharmaceuticals and Specialists reference guide. This is like an encyclopedia commonly referenced by doctors and pharmacists and lists all side effects of the most common drugs. And when I see some of the side effects associated with some of the most common prescription drugs, I am surprised that some of these drugs have not been outlawed as some appear just as dangerous in their effects as street drugs. When you go to your doctor, ask him what the "long term effects" of some prescription drugs are, s/he will look at you like a startled deer before it gets hit by a car. S/he has no idea. The scary part is anytime you ingest these prescription drugs, you are a guineau pig for any long term side effects, which could include serious cancer. So, in your words, "you could literally be killing yourself." Having said that I am not saying that someone with diabetes or another incurable disease whose survival depends on taking medications should stop. What I am saying not ingesting medications that are designed to only provide temporary relief of a condition or only mask the symptoms without addressing the root cause of the problem. Case in point, Antibiotics have been overprescribed by doctors and now we face a huge issue with how this could facilitate the mutation of a superbug( Antibiotic resistant bacteria) that could potentially wipe out the human race or a good part of it. It may sound like Science fiction but it is a fact. Many people have been able to successfully reduce their blood pressure and maintain normal blood pressure through a regime of liver flushes. Had these people not stumbled on the Liver Flush and been open to try it, what would have happened. They would have likely ended up on a lifetime of blood pressure medications, whose long term side effects would have harmed their health in other ways and in many cases in more serious ways than high blood pressure itself.
- Re: Some responses majestic_cheese
18 y
3,005
This is a reply to # 413,754Advertisement
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Complete with herbs and clay to eliminate hunger and cleansing reactions.
"The fact that 90% open mindedness and 10% skepticism has led to some of the most profound discoveries in the world(everything from the theory of relativity to the discovery of electricity). If it weren't for this attitude, we would all still be in the stoneage."
Not exactly an on-target analogy, is it? (Then again, you may very well use your body and your health as a place to experiment -- to each his own, I guess.)
Rather than discovery, a dubious analogy here at best, the better analogy is to making maps based on the information you get from countless people who have traveled the path before. Do you listen to one person? Ten? One hundred? Do you listen to only the people who say the path runs one way? Or do you listen to all of the explanations, and try to find the most accurate illustration of the path based on your observations?
"You were given a link that clearly addresses whether the Liver Flush has actually worked for people and whether gall stones were really released. Plus on top of that as other posters have stated, the answers you search are all clearly posted, you only need use the search button."
It's not quite that simple. I have searched, and I have read posts, but never found responses that couch the discussion as I have done here. I'm surprised that search over discussion is so much the preference for some people, on, well, what is after all a discussion board. I guess there will always be dredge-Nazis, though.
"Perhaps, it would have been more logical for you to search for the answers you sought as they were already posted. Then you would have have been in a position to make a more logical query. It is evident that you did not do this."
It's interesting how hostile and defensive you are. That shouldn't be the case if you see the pursuit of good health as a never-ending utilitarian inquiry, as opposed to a blind adherence to alternative medicine as a substitute for a blind adherence to orthodox medicine.
"And what exactly are you doing, when you consume pharmeceutical drugs??"
Who says I do?- Re: Some responses JohnnySmith
18 y
3,089
This is a reply to # 413,755"It's interesting how hostile and defensive you are. That shouldn't be the case if you see the pursuit of good health as a never-ending utilitarian inquiry, as opposed to a blind adherence to alternative medicine as a substitute for a blind adherence to orthodox medicine."
Lol, you're too funny. Did you even fully read my post. Seems like you are making a pretty big assumption in implying that I see pursuit of good health as a blind adherence to alternative medicine as a substitute for blind adherence to orthodox medicine. Did I not state that I was not proposing people give up use of medications to treat incurable life threatening diseases. And to refer to someone or some people as dredge Nazis, Wow!!!! Talk about hostile and defensive. Perhaps you should take a good hard look at yourself before you make judgements of others.
In your initial post you stated: "I've been having some lower GI and related ailments lately, and have been using some of the Dr. Schulze products, and now feel rather better. The Intestinal Formula #1 is moving my bowels very regularly (2-4 times a day!." Had you not been open minded enough to try this, I guess you would have never experienced this. You also stated: "Anything that is valid should be open to close scrutiny, and so natural curing methods should be too." For something to be valid by the standards of the scientific community, meticulous patient record keeping and case histories would be required. With respect to alternative medicine, unfortunately you will find much anecdotal evidence that supports alternative medicine but does not meet the scientific yardstick of validity. In fact, there are tribes, likely unknown to doctors and scientists that have been using a host of botanical extracts to treat a health problems, some of which have perplexed modern medicine. If these tribes were discovered, would we discount their medical pracices on grounds that there were not patient records or case histories. Small wonder, many of these tribes people do not want contact with us and would rather keep their medicinal cures secret. Having said that, there appears to be more than enough information posted by flushers that supports the benefits of the liver flush. A lot of this is not only ancedotal but factual in the form of gall bladder stone pictures, lab report of confirmation of gall bladder stone release via liver flush, etc.,
In the end, it is your choice. If you have issues with flushers experiences and postings of the flush and don't feel that your questions are being answered, then you can "Choose Not To Flush." It would seem that for you the Liver Flush would entail using your body and your health as a place to experiment and that is something you clearly do not want to do eventhough you had no problem using your body as an experimental ground for Dr.Schultz Formula #1. Like you said, to each his own. In reviewing you intial post and looking at the questions you raised, I was able to find all the answers that you allege are not being answered. You may want to carefully review DangerousProduce's Post again as I think has pretty much directed you to the answers. You may also want to reread this several times:
//www.curezone.org/forums/m.asp?f=73&i=553
There are and always will be two sides to every story/problem, people will often choose one side or another based on which side they feel makes the convincing or compelling argument. People will often differ in which side they believe in based on their preconcieved biases and interpretation of the information/facts provided. At some point, when someone feels that they are not getting all the answers, it may be time to just let ago and move on. Like you, I can also be skeptical of things. The first thing that I usually do is scour the Internet to see what others say, review the relevant information and facts. If I am satisfied, I will follow up with the issue. If I am not satisfied, I move on!!
Good Luck In Your Endless Search For The Truth.
"The Truth is Out There" but only if you "choose" to believe. I wish you all the luck in piecing together your puzzle(all the pieces are certainly there).
Peace
Best Wishes and God Bless.
May You Live Long and Prosper and May The Force Be With You.
- Re: Some responses Hidden Username
18 y
2,950
This is a reply to # 413,758Advertisement
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Complete with herbs and clay to eliminate hunger and cleansing reactions.
After seeing how you ask for help then attack people when they try to help you it is understandable why they YAWN, BURP, BELCH & FART at YOU!!! LOOK IT UP, YOU LAZY A$$!!! ALL THE INFORMATION IS RIGHT HERE AT YOUR LAZY FINGERTIPS! GROWL............
- Re: Some responses loose cabooose
18 y
2,916
This is a reply to # 413,759lol hmmm
what was the name of that cleanse that released all that anger?...
i think it was gallbladder- Re: Some responses Hidden Username
18 y
2,812
- Re: Some responses Hidden Username
18 y
2,812
- Re: Some responses #46493
18 y
2,838
- Re: Some responses
- Re: Some responses Hidden Username
18 y
2,950
- Re: Some responses #46493
18 y
2,770
- Re: Some responses JohnnySmith
18 y
2,944
This is a reply to # 413,764If your post is in defense of Majestic_Cheese or you are Majestic_Cheese incognito, keep in mind that referring to others as "Dredge-Nazis" serves no purspose. If you want respect, you have to earn respect, no two ways about, so please stop the finger pointing. Thank you.
- Re: Some responses majestic_cheese
17 y
2,687
This is a reply to # 413,766No, that poster was not me. I recently came back to this thread directed here by a web search (of all things). Your assumption that I was sock puppeting is pretty much in line with your earlier responses, typical old-poster "ownership" attitude. It's not possible that someone might (gasp) agree with me, or think that there was close-mindedness in the responses.
It's pretty clear from the responses here that discussion is not welcome -- "look it up it's been discussed already" is the typical retort of the dredge nazi. (Just as lol you didn't read my response" is often the retort of someone who doesn't want to have to defend what they've earlier said.) I doubt the same dismissive response would be delivered to someone who openly and uncritically bought into every natural healing technique, rather than someone asking questions. It's a shame, as you'd expect more from people in the holistic/natural healing community than a bureaucratic response. It's clear that Big Health isn't the only side in this battle that has a catechism.
- Re: Some responses majestic_cheese
17 y
2,687
- Re: Some responses JohnnySmith
18 y
2,944
- Re: Some responses JohnnySmith
18 y
3,089
- Re: Some responses majestic_cheese
18 y
3,005
- Edited #25274
18 y
3,258
- Re: Hoax allegations Elisabeth
18 y
3,456
This is a reply to # 413,744Advertisement
9 Day Fasting Program
Complete with herbs and clay to eliminate hunger and cleansing reactions.
Hi!
I for myself think that part of the so called stones come out of the liver, some out of the gallbladder and that some are built during the treatment. this is my personla oppinion, I have no proof for it. But imnmy opinion, the question where the "stones" are built ist not that important.
For me it is absolutely clear, that thanks to liver flush, something comes out of the liver, that should not be in it. It might be, that it comes out as "stones" or that a substance forms "stones" in the gut - both is possible. The improtant thing ist, that this substance is out of the liver!
I've done 22 flushes so far and my health has improved.
The result of the first flushes had a terrible smell. I never would have imagined, something like that coming out of me. With increasing numbers of flushes, this smell got more and more normal. Today I did my 22nd flush, and there was nearly no bad smell. Just try it out yourself. All people I know had this terrible semll in the first flushes. So if Liver Flush would not bring any effect - why would the smell change?
During the first flush I had an amount of very small yellow balls, about 1 mm in diameter, like miTlet (sorghum). I only had them during my first flush. I've never seen them again. Twoo of my friends described the same as the result of their first flush.Teh I mostly had gren, soft, pea-sized "stones".
I know that others had "stones" coming out, that were hard. This stones I think must have come out of the liver. I only had soft "stones", in different colors. Part of them may have been built in the gut's - and part of them may have come out of the liver. But as described above: it doesn't really matter to me.
Greetings
Elisabeth- Not-entirely certain doesn't make it... humanoid
17 y
2,947
This is a reply to # 413,762
Hello
I agree that part of the 'stones' must come out of the gallbladder and some others must 've been formed somewhere along the elimination 'route'. What I believe it's more important here, is that, the system is placed under some kind of "stress" that activates the inner powers of our perfect machine, starting a purging/healing process, that we're notable to explain...yet, it brings a healthier state....
I declare myself a 'neoskeptic' in life, and a neophyte in the matter; nevertheless, I'm gathering enough information (and courage), to give it a try, so I can have a "hands-on" experience with my own personal facts about the results...
Kind Regards
*******Note*******:
Skepticism: The word is derived from the Greek verb, "skeptomai," which means "to look carefully, to reflect."
A skeptic mind doesn't blindly believe, neither stubbornly denies anything.; It doubts accepted opinion, as a True fact. (“doubting” is not the same as “categorically negating”). .
skepticism is not synonim of cynicism, nor dogmatism.,
- Not-entirely certain doesn't make it... humanoid
17 y
2,947
- Re: Hoax allegations JohnnySmith
18 y
4,128
fetched in 0.1563 sec, IP =172.69.6.5, y=1