But as to your rendition, Kundalini does open one to our true energetic nature...This is true, I on the other had have had Self Realization as my meditative soul practice..Do you know of Parmahansa Yogananda?

Here's the problem with your debate, you have no first hand experience with the kundalini yoga you speak of.

How do I know, easy, your interpertations...and I know you to be, if not longwinded, very clear when you have experience...but James you are so in your head that it is you give cerebral experience to even feelings. Your opinions are well thought out, but they lack the experiential nature that is the connection with the soul to the ovasoul- which requires energy.
You're a bright guy but... But Here goes: All ** are my experiences**


by Quinthius

Subject: Fundamental Misunderstanding
From: Quinthius < Send email to Quinthius > | All Quinthius's Messages |
Date: 1/9/2006 1:16:36 PM ( 4 min æ ago ) ...

WARNING: Extremely long post. Only read if...............

Drugs are no means of genuine spirituality. Why? Because "experience" is not spirituality.

**Yes one must experience soul to have an interest in pursuing spirituality- the soul is of experiential nature-this is why we incarnate on this plane -the lure and pull of the experiencial...the soul unfolds as an experience.**

Just as the body and the material realm are "external", so too are the astral and soul realms.

*All is inside no one goes anywhere externally this is the misnomer of an uninitiated***
Those realms are fundamentally the same "thing", only at different levels of vibration. Just like ice, water, and steam. Ice is just more manifest than water and steam, more dense and more "material". Water is more material than steam. But fundamentally, all 3 are the same "thing"...

**There is truth in the statement if it stood by itself but, poor example or a nonsequitur for your subject***

At the most, drugs should only be experimented with briefly, as they can show that there is more depth to the mind than most people think. (*Who are these people you keep referring to?*)

* I am in agreement- exposing the already existing *

Once that is seen, they should be dropped completely. Even then, it would still be best to never bother with them in the first place. They can temporarily "awaken" you to astral and soul realms, or deeper depths of the mind, but becoming aware of those things is not "spirituality".

*** To each is own- read Rajneesh and Osho (same guy different periods of teachings- in the end he "had no name") Some believe that we must ride all seductions of the flesh out to the extent we need to rid ourselves of the attachment-do as much as you want as long as you want, so one will not reincarnate to have that experience again. There is a whole bank of literature on sense pleasures, sex, food, drugs, that hook us to reincarnate...and a belief that restraining our addictive nature is one of the reasons we are "lured" back or "attached to"****

All it is is learning more about the external "world" in which we function.

*** Nope, all is internal you only view it as external- ***

A very common misconception (**Whose common misconception?**) that people have is that psychic phenomenon or "visions" or whatever, equate to spirituality. This is not so. All of those things are only external experience. They exist only in the ever-changing realm of the "non-me". ALL experience is a constantly changing movie on a screen. That is the "non-me". The "me" is the watcher of the screen.

*** All is inside-no outside***

This is a problem many people run into with various meditation practices and yoga, especially kundalini yoga.

***Try it for 6 months- you will come back with experience ~ please this is not said flippantly, then we'll talk***

Why especially kundalini? All of these practices can lead to psychic phenomenon as a result of "feeding" various centers through concentration, but kundalini yoga is more especially prone to (even designed to) open mass amounts of psychic energies. Yes, this might be an opening to "what we're really capable of", to energies and abilities that most people aren't aware we have ... but the thing is,

"people equate this opening of psychic phenomenon with "spirituality"."

*** How do you know this, you have a penchant for the soap box my friend, how do you know this? You make all sorts of statements "about people's misconceptions" that are finally just your opinion and not my experience at all...***


This is a huge stumbling block as far as the path to REAL spirituality goes. Getting caught up in these things only delays the realization of the real "me". This is why many genuine gurus/enlightened people are very adamant about not bothering with psychic powers and experiences, to just discard them and not pay much attention to them. Your opinion

*** all can heal immediately this is one of the powers of this energy you call psychic energy- all in the world can be used for selfish purposes or service- and truly James this is a fleeting judgement- the key is to LIVE you life, and if you are truly living you can stop the analysis and experience it. So here is my question, why are you afraid to experience life force. Gurus warn of the fun and games of energetic power becuase it has a tendency to entertain the ego and distract, --How do they know this? Because they have all been through that stage before moving through it***

None of those experiences are necessary for genuine spirituality.

***An Opinion- you do not know nor can you judge anothers path...***

**I'd bet you are incorrect, but each has their own path- so Here's my *opinion*...But here's the giveaway- it is mentioned often and it is mentioned often because we have experienced it~ It is a gatekeeper so to speak a place to move through-many remained stuck but most move on because it loses it's sexiness in comparison with other callings"***

Again your opinion and the one perfect for you in the now, the downfall is to get so attached to your opinions that no shifts can be experienced- and James there will be several more for you*

The cultivation of that pure awareness that leads to the direct realization of itself. The process of getting disentangled with the ever-changing, external, "non-me". Everything you need is already here, right now. The only tool that is needed is *YOU*. It makes no difference whether you're functioning on a material, astral or soul realm. There are countless beings in all the realms, there are Gods and deities that are no more "enlightened" than humans.

*** in potentiality this is true..but are we using our potentiality to become healed, and whole- are we becoming? Are we soapboxing or practicinng?***

That is proof enough that those realms do not equate to "spirituality". To become "enlightened"
(I hate even saying that word- )
*my advice give it up hate is spiritually damaging!*;>}

you do not need "spiritual experiences" or psychic powers or any of that nonsense. To become enlightened is simply to see and remember the witness of all experience. In every experience, whether it's of a material, psychic, or soul nature, if you look closely enough... very closely... you will see that the experience is separate from "me".

Big Point here:!!!!
***Yes you do, it is the pure essence of who you are- if you can unattach all these endless opinions that are you now, and you will experience something*** The soul is experiential***

There is the phenomenon of experience, and then there is the pure undisturbed witness that makes the awareness of that experience possible. The witness is forever uninvolved in the experience, and that witness is the eternal "me".

Real spirituality is the rememberance of that "me" in all experience. No deeply profound spiritual insight is necessary. People think "enlightenment" is something big and amazing and huge... but that's just the ego's fantasy. It's really not big. It's the most simple thing in the world, and it can be realized through the most simple experiences. While eating, reading, bathing, taking a dump, looking at a flower, picking your nose... whatever. Infact those simple experiences are far better for practicing awareness than "big" so-called spiritual experiences are.

*** really the same thing, huh?*** All will happen as it happens***

The simple things are far less distracting, far less overwhelming. When it's simple and quiet you can better differentiate between "me" and "not me".

***All is One, no differentiation between***

Whether eating quietly or seeing grand visions of other realms, both are only external experience. Both exist "out there". One is just a lot more distracting than the other.



Here is a simple technique, the only technique that is needed for spirituality. It will not lead to great "spiritual experiences". It will only lead straight to YOU.

First, the understanding: the seer is never the seen. The witness is never the witnessed. If it is seen or observed, know that it is in the realm of "not me".

* So if it is observed then....it is not me- all is one- you have had OBE and this is your basis for this differentiation? None exists*****

Second, the application: Go through all experience, all phenomenon, all thought, all attachment, applying this "not me" to it. This is a process of dis-identification, of disentanglement. This pulls you out of all the clutter and puts you into yourself. See *ALL* experience as "out there" in the external. None of it is the pure "me"

***There is the perception of external unless your vision of you is separateness. This is only the individuation of the whole to co-create (or have lusty sex, and drop tons of acid or eat a whoel fudge cake and then rub left over icing all over your body and have your lover-oh that another forum**** (Loosen up, James it is that narrow- your opinions may be-but not the truth of this incarnation)

But it will be hard at first,***pfft***due to the veil of delusion and attachment. Start first with the most external, and then progress in stages deeper and deeper. Start with things external to the body. Your cars, money, relationships with other people, clothes, home, food, etc. See them as "not me" and become unattached.

*** all is you if you are seeing it or feeling it, it cannot come from anywhere else in the form you describe- if you are pure spirit you have trancended through the energetic vibration and you will see your whole creation of thought, feeling, as your beautifulness***

Also see *analyze* the *concept* of ownership -- it is only an idea that the ego places on things. "This is mine" is a false concept, and only leads to attachment to external things. Hold an orange in your hand, and ponder... "How can this be mine? It is over there, completely separate from me. It is obviously not ME. It is only sitting there in my hand."

*** OUT, OUT OUT of that head, NOW!***

Once you're free from strong attachment to external "things"

*** and instructions to others? Take your advice and use it where it belongs-as part of you***

, move on to the body. Use the same process. Observe and analyze the body intently. Search every nook and cranny in the body for "me". Can you find it anywhere? Ask yourself "Where am I?" and then search. Start with the fingers, the toes, move to the limbs, the lower abdomen, the upper chest, the neck, and ***finally the head.

The head is where most people feel the "me" is, No James this is where you feel "me" is*****Most feel it in their chest..this is my experience****


only because western culture is so focused on thinking and intellectualizing *hmmmm*). But just look and see for yourself. Feel. If I can feel and experience the head, where am I? This leads to the next stage: the mind. Thought. Astral and psychic phenomenon. Go through the same process with these things, always moving deeper and deeper, to the core of the ego, the whole feeling of individuality. Always searching for the "me", and always remembering that if it can be observed, it is not "me".

****You have fallen prey to your own logic!! feelings are the answer, - look at your choice of words...****

This can be practiced at any time, in any circumstance. As I said, the only tool needed is "you". This will bring you home. This is the real "Soul Medicine"-

***NO soul medicine is to get into your heart and outta that head***

James I was not suggesting LSD was soul medicine (although I did enjoy it 3 decades ago) It was a quote from the article.

***Thanks for all the time you put into this, you have some decent points but you often disagree with your own principles and you have a way of treating your opinions as fact***And truly you give way too many directions to others-they are here for their own experience not to have yours,?****

***9th***

--James